9 ms·
Most of what makes the M1 interesting is TSMC's 5nm process, why wouldn't we expect similar results from future x86 CPUs on 5nm or smaller. At least AMD is sup
by pengaru 6y ago
Most of what makes the M1 interesting is TSMC's 5nm process, why wouldn't we expect similar results from future x86 CPUs on 5nm or smaller.
At least AMD is supporting upstream Linux development for GPU support, if you care about Free software and control over your computers, throw your money at companies better aligned with those goals. Don't reward Apple for being assholes.
<=5nm AMD Zen SoCs will be fantastic as well
- nicoburns 6y agoThe other thing that makes it interesting is getting performance comparable to the fastest Intel/AMD processors as 3Ghz. I expect that AMD will catch up with Apple on performance when they switch to 5nm, but Apple's low clock speed means they're likely to retain the power usage advantage.
- hu3 6y agoIs there an ETA for 5nm AMD SoCs?
- pengaru 6y agoNot AFAIK, but it's not like 7nm AMD SoCs are intolerable dogs. Most M1 vs. PC comparisons are being made against Intel's ancient process, for obvious Apple-favoring reasons.
- judge2020 6y agoIt’s mostly compared to Intel since there’s no official AMD support on MacOS whatsoever. You very well could compare hackintosh AMD to Apple’s M1, but it wouldn’t be comparing Apples to Apples. There are indeed AMD Windows comparisons, however[0]. 0: https://youtu.be/4MkrEMjPk24?t=10m39s https://youtu.be/4MkrEMjPk24?t=10m39s
- judge2020 6y agoAlthough Apple booked TSMC’s entire production line (for an unknown length of time)[0], this official graph looks like it indicates 5nm before 2022 (so 2021)[1]. 0: https://www.extremetech.com/computing/315186-apple-books-tsmcs-entire-5nm-production-capability https://www.extremetech.com/computing/315186-apple-books-tsm... 1: https://youtu.be/iuiO6rqYV4o?t=12m56s https://youtu.be/iuiO6rqYV4o?t=12m56s
- saddlerustle 6y agoHuawei got a large fraction of TSMC's 5nm production this year because it had to stockpile chips ahead of the trade sanctions kicking in
- qwerty456127 6y agoDo the companies better aligned make full-metal laptops challenging MacBookAir durability and design while being 100% Linux-compatible?
- doublepg23 6y agoI'm hoping in the future System76 does, they're already making excellent desktop machines.
- The_Colonel 6y agoThere are e.g. Dell XPS "developer edition" which are shipping with Ubuntu and have near 100% hardware support (I think there's some issue with fingerprint reader).
- voltagex_ 6y agoI wonder at what point they got rid of the Intel RAID/RST controller that'll never be supported in upstream Linux - it's in the non-"developer" 9350.
- hvis 6y agoYou turn it off in the BIOS before installing your system, and that's it.
- voltagex_ 6y agoWhich is what I've done when installing Linux. Am I losing performance? Power efficiency? Features? It also makes dual booting trickier if you don't plan it beforehand. It frustrates me that there's not that many reviews that cover this kind of stuff, so it's hard to avoid silliness like this when making a substantial purchase like a laptop.
- heelix 6y agoIt is simple enough to set up windows to use the normal boot rather than the RAID one. I've got my XPS set up with one drive in Linux, one in Windows - and boot into the drive I want to be in.
- bigdict 6y agoOr do support Linux on M1 because you do want it, and reward Apple for making good hardware.
- lumost 6y agoI could be mistaken, but I’m unaware of any kernel capabilities/optimizations for heterogeneous cores with differing power requirements. System memory for both gpu and cpu workloads would also be a new requirement requiring some thought. I’d expect it to be difficult for amd/intel to match performance without similar software capabilities.
- pengaru 6y agoWithout any independent actual measurements of the same stack running on the same hardware with those optimizations turned off, we can't draw any conclusions regarding their significance. Considering Apple has been so adamant about misrepresenting what's really TSMC silicon as "Apple Silicon", I'm viewing everything they say through "PR oozing with insecurity about not actually controlling access to their chip's manufacturing process, and desperate to convince consumers (and investors) of this being a uniquely Apple advantage" glasses.
- mdellabitta 6y agoBased on your qualification of who's silicon it is, AMD, Broadcom, Marvell, MediaTek, Nvidia, STMicroelectronics, and Qualcomm do not manufacture chips... Even IBM uses TSMC. That's a lot of the CPU silicon shipping right now. The market has changed, and most CPU vendors don't fab their own chips anymore. The IP is in the chip design. Are you saying TSMC designed the M1?
- pengaru 6y agoI'm saying TSMC makes non-Apple chips as well, so Apple isn't enjoying as defensible of a moat when it comes to silicon as their marketing wants you to believe. We are in agreement.
- mdellabitta 6y agoBut the point is that manufacturing has become commodified. If TSMC doesn't work out, there are other fab companies to use.
- Eric_WVGG 6y agoI’m not sure that’s exactly accurate. The special JavaScript instructions, and the optimizations to retain/release counts within memory blocks, seem much more interesting. https://mobile.twitter.com/ErrataRob/status/1331735383193903104 https://mobile.twitter.com/ErrataRob/status/1331735383193903... I haven’t the foggiest idea if any of this could make it to competing ARM chips, but given how many years Snapdragons have been lagging relative to the iPhone “A” chips, I don’t feel too optimistic.
- olliej 6y agoThe “special javascript instructions” are a single instruction that’s only impact is removing a perf advantage intel has due to JS exposing x86 specific sentinels to the web. The only thing it does is remove a branch in arm64 where the various JITs have to do: Int value = (int)some double; If (flags) value = x86 sentinel Whereas x86 systems don’t have a branch by definition. That is all the “special instruction” does.
- novok 6y agoI don't think it will be that hard for Intel & AMD to put little operations like the javascript float one (which is a standard ARM instruction BTW) or some special instructions to help garbage collection and retain/release counts work more effectively that all programming languages could leverage. It's something else that makes it better.
- my123 6y agoAnd that instruction is to replicate the x86 FP rounding behavior, which ended up in the JS standard. Nothing else...
- ric2b 6y ago> The special JavaScript instructions That's an ARMv8 feature, not specific to Apple.
- saagarjha 6y agoARMv8.3 to be specific.
- coldtea 6y ago>Most of what makes the M1 interesting is TSMC's 5nm process, why wouldn't we expect similar results from future x86 CPUs on 5nm or smaller. It's many things working together, 5nm is not "most of it". Not to mention TSMC is already working on 3nm.
- someperson 6y agoSomething nobody ever mentions is Apple is the new Intel: they will tend to be at least one process node ahead of the competition. The reason for this is they have the scale to book all of TSMC's processing capacity for a new node. The AMDs of the world have to wait a year to receive the scraps while Apple move to the next TSMC node.
- zucker42 6y agoThe other thing that makes M1 interesting is it's ARM with specific hardware support for fast x86 emulation, which IMO is unlikely to be replicated in a top of the line laptop for the next 5 years.
- rbanffy 6y agox86 emulation is not an issue for 99% of the ARM market. I think it's safe to assume M1 is the first Apple chip that has it.
- saagarjha 6y agoA12Z has it.
- rbanffy 6y agoThat's kind of weird. What is it used for in iOS?
- saagarjha 6y agoNothing, but the DTK uses it.
- rbanffy 6y agoInteresting. It's either that Apple wanted to use it as the first-gen ARM-based Macs or that they planned it to be used internally and in the DTK while M1 isn't ready. Either way, it's quite impressive to have deliberately engineered dark silicon on consumer devices.
- bschwindHN 6y agoAre they really assholes? Competition is important to progress and I like that their M1 release has shaken things up so much. We should hopefully be seeing similar CPUs released in the future, now that Apple has shown a glimpse of what's possible. Until then I'll be enjoying the M1 because even if they're assholes, they're assholes who can make a computer I actually like using.
- ralph84 6y ago5nm certainly helped, but what really made M1 is the team Apple has assembled. Apple’s fat margins allowed them to attract and retain the best engineers with top of market total comp. Meanwhile Intel viewed engineering as a cost center to be optimized. So here we are.
- rbanffy 6y agoYou optimize for where your competition is. For the past couple generations, Intel had to optimize for prices and, with hiccups in the process improvements, this pressure gets even worse. When Zen 2 came out, IPC became a serious issue for Intel. I imagine that M1 makes it a lot more urgent. Also keep in mind that, in a sense, M1 is a dead end. Integrated fast memory is great when the size fits, but it's terrible if it doesn't.
- fomine3 6y agoComparing Apple A13 and Snapdragon 865 (both TSMC 7nm) would be good to know how Apple's chip design team does things well. https://www.anandtech.com/show/15603/the-samsung-galaxy-s20-s20-ultra-exynos-snapdragon-review-megalomania-devices/6 https://www.anandtech.com/show/15603/the-samsung-galaxy-s20-...
- bschwindHN 6y agoThose are some of the worst colors ever chosen for a bar chart. Topped off with "Chart series order in same order as legend order" while having the bars vertically stacked, and the legend with two columns. I don't know how some of these tech writers made it out of 6th grade science class with those charting skills.
- pjmlp 6y agoMy AMD APU begs to differ.