6 ms·

That feeling when a stable version of Wayland will be released on Windows faster than on Linux ;( (disclaimer: i've tried to use it on Nvidia, but it's far fro

by _a1_ 6y ago

That feeling when a stable version of Wayland will be released on Windows faster than on Linux ;( (disclaimer: i've tried to use it on Nvidia, but it's far from being usable, also tried to use it on Radeon 5700, it hangs on start, even mouse didn't work)

SahAssar 6y ago
I've used wayland as a daily driver for over a year now and everything besides screensharing has been working well (arch with sway on intel & amd)
- ed25519FUUU 6y ago
  This type of interaction is like a defining meme for linux on the desktop. One person's experience is horrible (mouse not working, monitor resolution not working, some other minor thing not working) and another person says "It's always worked for me." Notice how people almost never have these conversations about MacOS or Windows? Consistency in experience takes A LOT of investment, and it's a very weak point for linux on the desktop (speaking as someone who tries it every few years and goes back to Mac).
  - Arnavion 6y ago
    People have these conversations about Windows all the time. And it's usually worse when it comes to Windows because the software is closed both in the "source" sense and the "visibility" (logs, etc) sense, so nobody has any idea what to do except "try restarting", "try reinstalling the software", "try reinstalling Windows". (No idea about Macs; I don't pay attention to conversations about them.)
    - 59nadir 6y ago
      They really, really don't. This is one area where Stockholm syndrome usually kicks in hard for people who desperately want it to be true that Linux is polished and ready for the masses. Truthfully, I think I have the same issues on Linux nowadays as I had in the late 00's, just less consistently. The things that might work better nowadays (sound is a somewhat fixed issue?) work inconsistently (`pulseaudio -k`) and for some people might not work at all. Open source has done very little to remove inconsistencies and all three of your "try ..." remain very relevant with tons of software on Linux. Having used a Windows 10 box primarily for the last two years I can say there are way less issues and way less blockers involved when using Windows for development than Linux. I'm almost mad I didn't give up on Linux as a daily driver earlier, because in hindsight it really wasn't a productive experience.
      - Arnavion 6y ago
        >The things that might work better nowadays (sound is a somewhat fixed issue?) work inconsistently (`pulseaudio -k`) and for some people might not work at all. "pulseaudio doesn't work" meme in 2020, lol. Windows audio is a completely solved problem, right? Let's see some web search results for variations of "windows audio problem": https://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/forum/windows_10-other_settings-winpc/volume-control-at-100-cant-mute-or-reduce-sound/f54ce430-1a73-410a-8abc-720c5e73cfaa >Then... I called Dell. Spent FOUR HOURS on the phone last night, resetting/restoring operating system. Not fixed. --- https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/fix-sound-problems-in-windows-10-73025246-b61c-40fb-671a-2535c7cd56c8 >3. Verify that all Windows Updates are installed >6. Fix your audio drivers >9. Restart Audio Services >11. Restart to apply installed updates --- https://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/forum/windows_10-update/audio-problems-after-windows-10-update/c4586688-176f-41ef-9be8-33748a811fc3 >In this case I would look to reinstall the manufacturer audio drivers as they have probably been replaced by Windows 10 built in drivers. >ok after testing this on several games the sound is noticeably better but not completely normal should i download another driver ? --- Some lets-players I watch regularly complain about how W10 updates break their audio capture / microphone settings. They work around it by uninstalling the update and trying as hard as possible to not let it be reinstalled automatically. --- Like I said, not only are there problems, but nobody knows how to figure out what the problem is. Just "run the built-in troubleshooter" (which both clueful and clueless Windows users will tell you rarely fixes anything), "update your drivers", "install Windows updates", "restart your computer". When I have issues with OSS on Linux, I have logs with filenames and distinctive error messages, publicly viewable sources that I can correlate the logs to if I want to, and forums of other people who can do that if I don't. If it's an absolutely novel problem, I can contact the authors of the code and have a high expectation of getting a response. If it's an issue that needs a fix, I can track the progress and release of the fix. And before you say "I don't have any of these problems with audio on Windows", I too haven't had any problems with pulseaudio for the almost 10 years that I've used it.
        naikrovek 6y ago
        If you are arguing that Windows audio is as troublesome as Linux audio, I think you'll find a lot of people willing to debate you. The windows troubleshooters will fix the things they are designed to fix. They're just powershell scripts with a wizard-style interface. I've had them fix many networking issues on certain computers reliably. I haven't ever had an audio problem on Windows that wasn't caused by me, so I've never needed to run an audio troubleshooter for audio. Windows has log files too, you just need to know where to look. Usually event viewer will have what you need, but sometimes you'll need to run a diagnostic that generates logs, or you'll just need to know where the logs are.
    - bzb6 6y ago
      I don’t see these conversations about Windows anywhere, and Windows has lots of logs if you know where to look (the Event Viewer is a great start)
      - nix23 6y ago
        Oh yeah the logs of Windows are great: Exception Code 0xc0156734 ...Thanks Microsoft, now i need bing to find google, just to find 1000's of "registry cleaners" and "Antivirus" sites to find out whats wrong or what that error even means.
        ed25519FUUU 6y ago
        How many windows users do you think have never looked in the windows logs because they’ve never had to? This is coming from a Linux fan, and someone whose tried to do linux on the desktop many times, and a technical user at that. I stick with macOS not because I want to but because I have to.
        nix23 6y ago
        >How many windows users do you think have never looked in the windows logs because they’ve never had to? That probably counts for Android too? No? >and someone whose tried to do linux on the desktop many times, and a technical user at that. Na i don't believe you that you are a "technical user"
- Arnavion 6y ago
  >arch with sway on intel & amd Screensharing with xdpw will work fine with that setup.
p1necone 6y ago
Afaik compatibility should be much better on AMD/Intel GPUs than NVidia. If you can work out the hang on start issue you might have an alright time. (This is because AMD and Intel have proper first party open source drivers, whereas NVidia has a closed source binary blob or reverse engineered open source drivers)
neckardt 6y ago
I had problems with wayland the first time I tried it with an AMD gpu as well, the solution was to simply install a new kernel. I was running debian stable so the old kernel wasn't exactly unexpected.
- posguy 6y ago
  Wayland runs fine on my Ryzen 2500U (kernel 5.4, Debian 10) and on the Radeon RX 470 (kernel 4.19, Debian 10), both using AMDGPU.
pjmlp 6y ago
Wayland is used in ChromeOS.
- Dylan16807 6y ago
  Can that be used stably on normal desktop hardware though?
  - pjmlp 6y ago
    Red-Hat seems to think so, https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/fedora/rawhide/system-administrators-guide/Wayland/ https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/fedora/rawhide/system-a...
    - Dylan16807 6y ago
      I was asking about ChromeOS.
      - pjmlp 6y ago
        So I don't get the question, ChromeOS seems to work. If you mean Crostini, no idea, I don't own a ChromeOS laptop.
        Dylan16807 6y ago
        The top comment was talking about their hopes for a wayland that is stable in general across normal hardware, not just in specific cases, since they couldn't get it working on nvidia nor AMD GPUs. You said it works on ChromeOS, but that's missing their point unless ChromeOS is stable in general across normal hardware. So I asked if it was.
        pjmlp 6y ago
        Just like regular GNU/Linux, when one supports companies like System76, if you want to be sure it works across normal hardware, buy it pre-installed Chromebook. Everything else is just a pain I have grew too old to even care about.

by _a1_ 6y ago

SahAssar 6y ago

I've used wayland as a daily driver for over a year now and everything besides screensharing has been working well (arch with sway on intel & amd)

ed25519FUUU 6y ago
This type of interaction is like a defining meme for linux on the desktop. One person's experience is horrible (mouse not working, monitor resolution not working, some other minor thing not working) and another person says "It's always worked for me." Notice how people almost never have these conversations about MacOS or Windows? Consistency in experience takes A LOT of investment, and it's a very weak point for linux on the desktop (speaking as someone who tries it every few years and goes back to Mac).
- Arnavion 6y ago
  People have these conversations about Windows all the time. And it's usually worse when it comes to Windows because the software is closed both in the "source" sense and the "visibility" (logs, etc) sense, so nobody has any idea what to do except "try restarting", "try reinstalling the software", "try reinstalling Windows". (No idea about Macs; I don't pay attention to conversations about them.)
  - 59nadir 6y ago
    They really, really don't. This is one area where Stockholm syndrome usually kicks in hard for people who desperately want it to be true that Linux is polished and ready for the masses. Truthfully, I think I have the same issues on Linux nowadays as I had in the late 00's, just less consistently. The things that might work better nowadays (sound is a somewhat fixed issue?) work inconsistently (`pulseaudio -k`) and for some people might not work at all. Open source has done very little to remove inconsistencies and all three of your "try ..." remain very relevant with tons of software on Linux. Having used a Windows 10 box primarily for the last two years I can say there are way less issues and way less blockers involved when using Windows for development than Linux. I'm almost mad I didn't give up on Linux as a daily driver earlier, because in hindsight it really wasn't a productive experience.
    - Arnavion 6y ago
      >The things that might work better nowadays (sound is a somewhat fixed issue?) work inconsistently (`pulseaudio -k`) and for some people might not work at all. "pulseaudio doesn't work" meme in 2020, lol. Windows audio is a completely solved problem, right? Let's see some web search results for variations of "windows audio problem": https://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/forum/windows_10-other_settings-winpc/volume-control-at-100-cant-mute-or-reduce-sound/f54ce430-1a73-410a-8abc-720c5e73cfaa >Then... I called Dell. Spent FOUR HOURS on the phone last night, resetting/restoring operating system. Not fixed. --- https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/fix-sound-problems-in-windows-10-73025246-b61c-40fb-671a-2535c7cd56c8 >3. Verify that all Windows Updates are installed >6. Fix your audio drivers >9. Restart Audio Services >11. Restart to apply installed updates --- https://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/forum/windows_10-update/audio-problems-after-windows-10-update/c4586688-176f-41ef-9be8-33748a811fc3 >In this case I would look to reinstall the manufacturer audio drivers as they have probably been replaced by Windows 10 built in drivers. >ok after testing this on several games the sound is noticeably better but not completely normal should i download another driver ? --- Some lets-players I watch regularly complain about how W10 updates break their audio capture / microphone settings. They work around it by uninstalling the update and trying as hard as possible to not let it be reinstalled automatically. --- Like I said, not only are there problems, but nobody knows how to figure out what the problem is. Just "run the built-in troubleshooter" (which both clueful and clueless Windows users will tell you rarely fixes anything), "update your drivers", "install Windows updates", "restart your computer". When I have issues with OSS on Linux, I have logs with filenames and distinctive error messages, publicly viewable sources that I can correlate the logs to if I want to, and forums of other people who can do that if I don't. If it's an absolutely novel problem, I can contact the authors of the code and have a high expectation of getting a response. If it's an issue that needs a fix, I can track the progress and release of the fix. And before you say "I don't have any of these problems with audio on Windows", I too haven't had any problems with pulseaudio for the almost 10 years that I've used it.
      - naikrovek 6y ago
        If you are arguing that Windows audio is as troublesome as Linux audio, I think you'll find a lot of people willing to debate you. The windows troubleshooters will fix the things they are designed to fix. They're just powershell scripts with a wizard-style interface. I've had them fix many networking issues on certain computers reliably. I haven't ever had an audio problem on Windows that wasn't caused by me, so I've never needed to run an audio troubleshooter for audio. Windows has log files too, you just need to know where to look. Usually event viewer will have what you need, but sometimes you'll need to run a diagnostic that generates logs, or you'll just need to know where the logs are.
  - bzb6 6y ago
    I don’t see these conversations about Windows anywhere, and Windows has lots of logs if you know where to look (the Event Viewer is a great start)
    - nix23 6y ago
      Oh yeah the logs of Windows are great: Exception Code 0xc0156734 ...Thanks Microsoft, now i need bing to find google, just to find 1000's of "registry cleaners" and "Antivirus" sites to find out whats wrong or what that error even means.
      - ed25519FUUU 6y ago
        How many windows users do you think have never looked in the windows logs because they’ve never had to? This is coming from a Linux fan, and someone whose tried to do linux on the desktop many times, and a technical user at that. I stick with macOS not because I want to but because I have to.
        nix23 6y ago
        >How many windows users do you think have never looked in the windows logs because they’ve never had to? That probably counts for Android too? No? >and someone whose tried to do linux on the desktop many times, and a technical user at that. Na i don't believe you that you are a "technical user"
Arnavion 6y ago
>arch with sway on intel & amd Screensharing with xdpw will work fine with that setup.

p1necone 6y ago

Afaik compatibility should be much better on AMD/Intel GPUs than NVidia. If you can work out the hang on start issue you might have an alright time. (This is because AMD and Intel have proper first party open source drivers, whereas NVidia has a closed source binary blob or reverse engineered open source drivers)

neckardt 6y ago

I had problems with wayland the first time I tried it with an AMD gpu as well, the solution was to simply install a new kernel. I was running debian stable so the old kernel wasn't exactly unexpected.

posguy 6y ago
Wayland runs fine on my Ryzen 2500U (kernel 5.4, Debian 10) and on the Radeon RX 470 (kernel 4.19, Debian 10), both using AMDGPU.

pjmlp 6y ago

Wayland is used in ChromeOS.

Dylan16807 6y ago
Can that be used stably on normal desktop hardware though?
- pjmlp 6y ago
  Red-Hat seems to think so, https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/fedora/rawhide/system-administrators-guide/Wayland/ https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/fedora/rawhide/system-a...
  - Dylan16807 6y ago
    I was asking about ChromeOS.
    - pjmlp 6y ago
      So I don't get the question, ChromeOS seems to work. If you mean Crostini, no idea, I don't own a ChromeOS laptop.
      - Dylan16807 6y ago
        The top comment was talking about their hopes for a wayland that is stable in general across normal hardware, not just in specific cases, since they couldn't get it working on nvidia nor AMD GPUs. You said it works on ChromeOS, but that's missing their point unless ChromeOS is stable in general across normal hardware. So I asked if it was.
        pjmlp 6y ago
        Just like regular GNU/Linux, when one supports companies like System76, if you want to be sure it works across normal hardware, buy it pre-installed Chromebook. Everything else is just a pain I have grew too old to even care about.