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All these developers are wasting time and money to help support a company that is actively working to lock down personal computers. Think about the future wher

All these developers are wasting time and money to help support a company that is actively working to lock down personal computers. Think about the future where a new developer needs to pay a license fee, and have their software reviewed just to show his friends.

Razengan 6y ago
It’s no different than consoles, and many users and developers are okay with it. For those who are not, there are other options. Why is that so difficult?
- boudewijnrempt 6y ago
  "there are other options." Until the day when there aren't other options -- which isn't so difficult to understand, really.
  - acdc4life 6y ago
    Slippery slope, with all evidence pointing to the contrary. Apple will never have a monopoly, linux will always be an alternative.
    - makapuf 6y ago
      Not on apple hardware however.
      - rbrtl 6y ago
        So... don't buy it? Unless you think it's the best hardware on the market at the best price point. And what makes you so important that every hardware provider has to bend to your will? I can't run Shor's Algorithm on my Raspberry Pi, whose fault is that?
  - Razengan 6y ago
    Alright. How will there be no other options one day?
    - Razengan 6y ago
      As expected, no answer.
  - rbrtl 6y ago
    How will Apple take away your options? That's what's difficult to understand. Either the FOSS/DIY approach has merit and will continue to thrive, or it'll die because it becomes impractical, neither of those courses have anything to do with Apple trying to prevent Joe Bloggs becoming a node in a botnet. EDIT: > isn't so difficult to understand, really You may be confusing "understand" with "imagine"
    - deleted 6y ago
      [deleted]
  - ulisesrmzroche 6y ago
    Then why don't you rail on Linux? If one day there won't be any other options left, why not aim that way? Presumably that's a worse betrayal
- kevingadd 6y ago
  "It's no different than consoles" is a pretty strong statement to make unsupported. There are many differences. You can make a more direct comparison between say, an iPhone and a game console, but a general-purpose laptop or desktop has very many differences from a game console, and ought to.
  - riotman 6y ago
    > "It's no different than consoles" is a pretty strong statement to make unsupported. There are many differences. Like what? ps5/xbox series x/ps4/xbox one are very sophisticated, comparable to a modern desktop PC, yet it's totally closed off. Consoles no longer resemble embedded devices like previous gens. Heck, even the original nes used the MOS 6502 chip, which was very popular in PCs in the early days.
- mhh__ 6y ago
  Consoles exist as an exception rather than the rule. You should be able to run whatever you want on what is basically an x86/RDNA2 gaming PC. The openness of the PC should be enforced legally across anything that can be reasonably construed to be one.
  - Razengan 6y ago
    > The openness of the PC should be enforced legally Oh fuck no. If you want a PC you can get a PC. Stop trying to force your mediocrity-for-all BS on those who don’t want PCs.
eyelidlessness 6y ago
Or these developers value different things than you and they’re spending their time how they want to benefit from those different values.
- db579 6y ago
  That's even worse. Accidentally disagreeing with my values would be one thing but doing it on purpose... beyond the pale!
- pydry 6y ago
  More likely they're simply not considering what the future will inevitably hold.
  - marcinzm 6y ago
    Why it is so difficult to consider that your calculations of risk-vs-reward are not universal nor inherently correct? They likely did the math and found that the risk is worth the reward to them. Actual money in the hand now is worth more than theoretical money in the future and so on.
    - _dibly 6y ago
      I think it's funny that you accuse someone of not considering the alternatives with the supporting argument that 'they probably considered the alternatives'. What makes you think a for-profit company is thinking about the long-term negative impacts of their business on the industry when that's rarely the case in a free market? >Actual money in the hand now is worth more than theoretical money in the future and so on. Exactly, short-term profit will almost always trump long-term problems. Is that so difficult to consider?
      - marcinzm 6y ago
        This is a discussion regarding third party developers who use the Apple platform. I honestly have no clue how your statements tie into that in any way.
viktorcode 6y ago
I think they aren't wasting time and money. Look at the article's author -- they are investing time to earn money selling their product on this platform. Also, your point about Mac future is pure speculation at this point, which contradicts public statements from Apple.
- _dibly 6y ago
  Apple contradicts public statements from Apple pretty consistently, they have a habit of saying they won't ever do something right up until they do it. I don't think there's anything unreasonable about those types of concerns because when/if Apple does go back on their public statements you won't have much recourse.
yuy910616 6y ago
I think the value of app stores is going to continue to diminish as web apps gains traction. Look at webapps like Figma; it's quite powerful.
- rimliu 6y ago
  Can we retire this already? I have been hearing it for ten years at least. Or will it stick around like the "year of the Linux desktop"?
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
- heavyset_go 6y ago
  Apple purposely doesn't implement standards that would make progressive web apps possible on their platforms, and they don't allow third party applications on their mobile platforms.
maxpert 6y ago
With this argument iOS should have never taken off. Yet it’s better than “open” Android standards. Thing is Apple rewired people to stop thinking about RAM and CPUs and made developers write software that works on 4 year old iPhone. Try that in Android or Windows. Yes there is a down side to it but as long as consumers can win with the outcome I personally think it should be fine.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
pjmlp 6y ago
I used to live in that past, and you know what, it was great to be able to sell development tools to developers instead of being forced to work only with enterprise customers, the only ones left willing to pay for tools.
- mhh__ 6y ago
  Who will think of Apple's revenues in these trying times?
  - pjmlp 6y ago
    Everyone gets to pay for their tools, in some form even if it means getting them n-hand out of some flea market, just in some software development circles for some strange reason we get a bunch of people that feel entitled to earning money without paying others for their work.

Razengan 6y ago

It’s no different than consoles, and many users and developers are okay with it. For those who are not, there are other options. Why is that so difficult?

boudewijnrempt 6y ago
"there are other options." Until the day when there aren't other options -- which isn't so difficult to understand, really.
- acdc4life 6y ago
  Slippery slope, with all evidence pointing to the contrary. Apple will never have a monopoly, linux will always be an alternative.
  - makapuf 6y ago
    Not on apple hardware however.
    - rbrtl 6y ago
      So... don't buy it? Unless you think it's the best hardware on the market at the best price point. And what makes you so important that every hardware provider has to bend to your will? I can't run Shor's Algorithm on my Raspberry Pi, whose fault is that?
- Razengan 6y ago
  Alright. How will there be no other options one day?
  - Razengan 6y ago
    As expected, no answer.
- rbrtl 6y ago
  How will Apple take away your options? That's what's difficult to understand. Either the FOSS/DIY approach has merit and will continue to thrive, or it'll die because it becomes impractical, neither of those courses have anything to do with Apple trying to prevent Joe Bloggs becoming a node in a botnet. EDIT: > isn't so difficult to understand, really You may be confusing "understand" with "imagine"
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
- ulisesrmzroche 6y ago
  Then why don't you rail on Linux? If one day there won't be any other options left, why not aim that way? Presumably that's a worse betrayal
kevingadd 6y ago
"It's no different than consoles" is a pretty strong statement to make unsupported. There are many differences. You can make a more direct comparison between say, an iPhone and a game console, but a general-purpose laptop or desktop has very many differences from a game console, and ought to.
- riotman 6y ago
  > "It's no different than consoles" is a pretty strong statement to make unsupported. There are many differences. Like what? ps5/xbox series x/ps4/xbox one are very sophisticated, comparable to a modern desktop PC, yet it's totally closed off. Consoles no longer resemble embedded devices like previous gens. Heck, even the original nes used the MOS 6502 chip, which was very popular in PCs in the early days.
mhh__ 6y ago
Consoles exist as an exception rather than the rule. You should be able to run whatever you want on what is basically an x86/RDNA2 gaming PC. The openness of the PC should be enforced legally across anything that can be reasonably construed to be one.
- Razengan 6y ago
  > The openness of the PC should be enforced legally Oh fuck no. If you want a PC you can get a PC. Stop trying to force your mediocrity-for-all BS on those who don’t want PCs.

eyelidlessness 6y ago

Or these developers value different things than you and they’re spending their time how they want to benefit from those different values.

db579 6y ago
That's even worse. Accidentally disagreeing with my values would be one thing but doing it on purpose... beyond the pale!
pydry 6y ago
More likely they're simply not considering what the future will inevitably hold.
- marcinzm 6y ago
  Why it is so difficult to consider that your calculations of risk-vs-reward are not universal nor inherently correct? They likely did the math and found that the risk is worth the reward to them. Actual money in the hand now is worth more than theoretical money in the future and so on.
  - _dibly 6y ago
    I think it's funny that you accuse someone of not considering the alternatives with the supporting argument that 'they probably considered the alternatives'. What makes you think a for-profit company is thinking about the long-term negative impacts of their business on the industry when that's rarely the case in a free market? >Actual money in the hand now is worth more than theoretical money in the future and so on. Exactly, short-term profit will almost always trump long-term problems. Is that so difficult to consider?
    - marcinzm 6y ago
      This is a discussion regarding third party developers who use the Apple platform. I honestly have no clue how your statements tie into that in any way.

viktorcode 6y ago

I think they aren't wasting time and money. Look at the article's author -- they are investing time to earn money selling their product on this platform. Also, your point about Mac future is pure speculation at this point, which contradicts public statements from Apple.

_dibly 6y ago
Apple contradicts public statements from Apple pretty consistently, they have a habit of saying they won't ever do something right up until they do it. I don't think there's anything unreasonable about those types of concerns because when/if Apple does go back on their public statements you won't have much recourse.

yuy910616 6y ago

I think the value of app stores is going to continue to diminish as web apps gains traction. Look at webapps like Figma; it's quite powerful.

rimliu 6y ago
Can we retire this already? I have been hearing it for ten years at least. Or will it stick around like the "year of the Linux desktop"?
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
heavyset_go 6y ago
Apple purposely doesn't implement standards that would make progressive web apps possible on their platforms, and they don't allow third party applications on their mobile platforms.

maxpert 6y ago

With this argument iOS should have never taken off. Yet it’s better than “open” Android standards. Thing is Apple rewired people to stop thinking about RAM and CPUs and made developers write software that works on 4 year old iPhone. Try that in Android or Windows. Yes there is a down side to it but as long as consumers can win with the outcome I personally think it should be fine.

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

pjmlp 6y ago

I used to live in that past, and you know what, it was great to be able to sell development tools to developers instead of being forced to work only with enterprise customers, the only ones left willing to pay for tools.

mhh__ 6y ago
Who will think of Apple's revenues in these trying times?
- pjmlp 6y ago
  Everyone gets to pay for their tools, in some form even if it means getting them n-hand out of some flea market, just in some software development circles for some strange reason we get a bunch of people that feel entitled to earning money without paying others for their work.