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I needed to buy a set of bolts, I checked my local hardware store and 12 was sold by £2.99. I thought: 'this is expensive, let me check online'. Went to amazon,

I needed to buy a set of bolts, I checked my local hardware store and 12 was sold by £2.99. I thought: 'this is expensive, let me check online'. Went to amazon, found the same for £1.99 with free shipping (prime). Now, which one should I buy? The one where I have to go somewhere and then pay more, or the other where I click a few buttons and the next day the product is with me? Should I 'invest' in my local hardware?

rightbyte 6y ago
Bolts for a car? I would not dare buy bolts on Amazon due to the risk of counterfeits with lower grade than advertized.
otachack 6y ago
A margin of a dollar? I believe you should support your local store as long as you can afford it. It's more work, money, and time off your day but it's likely you waste the extra time Amazon convenience gives you with browsing HN, or the like, anyways. Local business also most likely have picked up curbside for convenience. It's in Amazon's best interest to shutter all locals aside from what they own (Whole Foods, Amazon Grocery, etc). Their ultimate goal is automating everything they can to remove the human element and maximize revenue. You can see other businesses like Starbucks taking over as well in different fields. In my opinion it's a matter of time until Amazon starts their own attempt at local cafes. We had presidential candidates in the US like Andrew Yang that recognize this effort and want to get ahead of it with UBI but I'm sure you know how that turned out. If the government isn't going to support local businesses in dire times, who will? And who wants to live in a boring world where there are no local shops?
- newen 6y ago
  Fighting systemic changes by making individual decisions is quixotic, to put it nicely.
- hmate9 6y ago
  Sure. If it was only a single dollar. But do it for every purchase and it adds up. In a way if you are relying on the "community" to help your business stay alive, then your business is clearly not creating enough value and shouldn't exist.
  - bosie 6y ago
    > then your business is clearly not creating enough value and shouldn't exist. how do you factor jobloss and destruction of your community into this 'value'?
    - calvano915 6y ago
      Theres a spectrum of differences throughout the country, but in my area Amazon is providing a better starting wage and vastly better benefits to hundreds of warehouse workers on day 1 than any small retail businesses can compete with in the area.
      - bosie 6y ago
        Shouldn’t you compare this to 25 years ago as the demand long of communities has been in progress for decades?
- freehunter 6y ago
  How long should we go out of our way to protect horse and buggy manufacturers? I say that as someone who runs a business focused around increasing customer engagement with local businesses in small towns, but honestly it would take a monumental effort to save so many of these "general store" type of businesses that a small number of people paying the "local" tax on commodity goods isn't going to cut it. Local mom-and-pop stores need to be looking for ways to differentiate from their mega-competitors. It's possible, and many stores are doing it successfully. But hardware stores? Selling bolts? Their only customers are people who don't use Amazon (older/rural) or people who need that bolt right now and are willing to pay 2-3x retail price for it. Especially in a pandemic where Amazon/Walmart are allowed to be open with few restrictions, but mom-and-pop has to close. Successful small business going forward has to offer something Amazon/Walmart can't copy. Authenticity, experiences, memories. Escape rooms were a huge success story, creating axe throwing and fowling and other group activities, and often those places opened their businesses in the empty stores of businesses that couldn't compete with Amazon/Walmart and went out of business. Live music is another place Amazon can't compete with. A beautiful river-front promenade with park benches and an ice cream shop and a coffee stand and a vendor selling popcorn from a cart with some people getting ready to launch their kayaks while others are fly fishing, Amazon and Walmart and big box stores and strip malls can't compete with that. That's downtown, small, local. That's high profit margin. Rather than clinging to the past where shopping local meant paying high prices on commodity items, we should be looking forward to a future where shopping local means "I can't get this anywhere else". That takes innovation. Grocery and bolts aren't innovation, they're commodities.
  - spunker540 6y ago
    This is a beautiful and profound take on a brighter future despite the huge changes we’re all seeing. It is very possible that while local mom and pop basic retail dwindles, it is replaced by more enriching social opportunities. People will have marginally more free time due to time saved running errands, and marginally more dollars to spend. hopefully more meaningful local experiences can fill the void.
  - liberatumente 6y ago
    A strawman from the onset in my opinion. What happens if your country of residence enacts laws and/or regulations that make business unprofitable for Amazon (or the like)? Better yet, what if enough people are put out of work such that there isn't enough demand for the economy of scale required for Amazon to remain profitable? I assume you are technical, perusing this site, thus isn't a monolith, a single point of failure a significant risk? Your perspective appears to be of wealth and privilege. What about those that can't afford a Prime subscription?
- renewiltord 6y ago
  It doesn't matter what you "should" do. In aggregate, all the people who take the margin where cheaply available will outcompete all the people who don't. It's less about you and whether you can be replaced by a facsimile of you who does all the same things but this one thing differently. At the margin, that facsimile is a superiorly-adapted species and evolution then takes its course. You have to modify the environment in order to make the unmodified you more competitive than the doppelgänger.
baby-yoda 6y ago
in the short term, at the individual level, that is entirely rational thinking. I would argue in the long term all of these tiny decisions in aggregate end up being net negative. if that is an accurate assumption, what is the solution? perhaps a paradigm shift in retail tech that enables any manufacturer to engage in direct to consumer at far reduced complexity? micro/regional manufacturing?
v64 6y ago
It depends on your goal. If your goal is to optimize spending, go with Amazon. If your goal is to support mom and pops over multinational corporations, go with the mom and pop. I think NDizzle's point is that most peoples' rationale goes economically as you did, and that maybe we should reconsider that.
- rc_mob 6y ago
  Everyone is so afraid of one government world order. What about one corporation world order?
scrose 6y ago
It’s a balancing act between a short-term gain and a long-term loss. For a while, you may notice Amazon has slightly better prices on things. One day you may need some advice on a project, so you go to the local hardware store. Except the store was eventually run out of business by not being able to leverage the same economies of scale as an e-giant. I think of it less as investing in your local hardware, and more of investing in your community
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
sp332 6y ago
I think of it this way. £2 is nice and cheap but it's directly funding making the world worse. That's why in this case £3 is better as long as 0 of it goes to Amazon.
- spoopyskelly 6y ago
  Your local shitty store gives worse pay and benefits to their workers, and charges you more. Good job voting with your wallet.
benhurmarcel 6y ago
I'd consider an extra £1 fairly cheap to get them immediately, be sure they're not counterfeit, and not have to deal with receiving a package.
mdoms 6y ago
For such a small outlay yes you should support your local community. I can't believe this even needs to be said.
iguy 6y ago
Having things available right now, in small quantities, near to you, is precisely the service local hardware stores have always provided. For a small fee. Of course they can be had cheaper, and in a wider variety, from some huge warehouse further away. But then you can't get the job done this afternoon. The change from 1950s mail order is that the payment is easier, the shipping is (sometimes) faster, and that you might get the Chinese knock-off.
jeffrallen 6y ago
You can either "invest" in your local hardware store or "invest" in paying unemployment for your neighbors. Choose wisely.
throwaway201103 6y ago
Is it the same bolt? Or is the one from Amazon a cheap chinese bolt made with low-grade steel that will break when you tighten it?
burnthrow 6y ago
For saving $1, you get extra trash from shipping, have to track a package. And there's the waste of ordering it and having it shipped, some bloke's going to double park with hazard lights and walk the thing to your door. On the other hand, you're already there in the store, and the bolt could be yours without that nonsense. What's the value of that dollar then?
- pb7 6y ago
  Depends. You could also get into a car accident on the way to the store, someone could scratch your car in the parking lot, you could be the victim of a crime, and many other things that you and I can come up with. Then that dollar seems pretty significant.
  - burnthrow 6y ago
    We live in remarkably different worlds. No car, and the likeliest crime here would be theft of the package itself.

rightbyte 6y ago

Bolts for a car? I would not dare buy bolts on Amazon due to the risk of counterfeits with lower grade than advertized.

otachack 6y ago

A margin of a dollar? I believe you should support your local store as long as you can afford it. It's more work, money, and time off your day but it's likely you waste the extra time Amazon convenience gives you with browsing HN, or the like, anyways. Local business also most likely have picked up curbside for convenience. It's in Amazon's best interest to shutter all locals aside from what they own (Whole Foods, Amazon Grocery, etc). Their ultimate goal is automating everything they can to remove the human element and maximize revenue. You can see other businesses like Starbucks taking over as well in different fields. In my opinion it's a matter of time until Amazon starts their own attempt at local cafes. We had presidential candidates in the US like Andrew Yang that recognize this effort and want to get ahead of it with UBI but I'm sure you know how that turned out. If the government isn't going to support local businesses in dire times, who will? And who wants to live in a boring world where there are no local shops?

newen 6y ago
Fighting systemic changes by making individual decisions is quixotic, to put it nicely.
hmate9 6y ago
Sure. If it was only a single dollar. But do it for every purchase and it adds up. In a way if you are relying on the "community" to help your business stay alive, then your business is clearly not creating enough value and shouldn't exist.
- bosie 6y ago
  > then your business is clearly not creating enough value and shouldn't exist. how do you factor jobloss and destruction of your community into this 'value'?
  - calvano915 6y ago
    Theres a spectrum of differences throughout the country, but in my area Amazon is providing a better starting wage and vastly better benefits to hundreds of warehouse workers on day 1 than any small retail businesses can compete with in the area.
    - bosie 6y ago
      Shouldn’t you compare this to 25 years ago as the demand long of communities has been in progress for decades?
freehunter 6y ago
How long should we go out of our way to protect horse and buggy manufacturers? I say that as someone who runs a business focused around increasing customer engagement with local businesses in small towns, but honestly it would take a monumental effort to save so many of these "general store" type of businesses that a small number of people paying the "local" tax on commodity goods isn't going to cut it. Local mom-and-pop stores need to be looking for ways to differentiate from their mega-competitors. It's possible, and many stores are doing it successfully. But hardware stores? Selling bolts? Their only customers are people who don't use Amazon (older/rural) or people who need that bolt right now and are willing to pay 2-3x retail price for it. Especially in a pandemic where Amazon/Walmart are allowed to be open with few restrictions, but mom-and-pop has to close. Successful small business going forward has to offer something Amazon/Walmart can't copy. Authenticity, experiences, memories. Escape rooms were a huge success story, creating axe throwing and fowling and other group activities, and often those places opened their businesses in the empty stores of businesses that couldn't compete with Amazon/Walmart and went out of business. Live music is another place Amazon can't compete with. A beautiful river-front promenade with park benches and an ice cream shop and a coffee stand and a vendor selling popcorn from a cart with some people getting ready to launch their kayaks while others are fly fishing, Amazon and Walmart and big box stores and strip malls can't compete with that. That's downtown, small, local. That's high profit margin. Rather than clinging to the past where shopping local meant paying high prices on commodity items, we should be looking forward to a future where shopping local means "I can't get this anywhere else". That takes innovation. Grocery and bolts aren't innovation, they're commodities.
- spunker540 6y ago
  This is a beautiful and profound take on a brighter future despite the huge changes we’re all seeing. It is very possible that while local mom and pop basic retail dwindles, it is replaced by more enriching social opportunities. People will have marginally more free time due to time saved running errands, and marginally more dollars to spend. hopefully more meaningful local experiences can fill the void.
- liberatumente 6y ago
  A strawman from the onset in my opinion. What happens if your country of residence enacts laws and/or regulations that make business unprofitable for Amazon (or the like)? Better yet, what if enough people are put out of work such that there isn't enough demand for the economy of scale required for Amazon to remain profitable? I assume you are technical, perusing this site, thus isn't a monolith, a single point of failure a significant risk? Your perspective appears to be of wealth and privilege. What about those that can't afford a Prime subscription?
renewiltord 6y ago
It doesn't matter what you "should" do. In aggregate, all the people who take the margin where cheaply available will outcompete all the people who don't. It's less about you and whether you can be replaced by a facsimile of you who does all the same things but this one thing differently. At the margin, that facsimile is a superiorly-adapted species and evolution then takes its course. You have to modify the environment in order to make the unmodified you more competitive than the doppelgänger.

baby-yoda 6y ago

in the short term, at the individual level, that is entirely rational thinking. I would argue in the long term all of these tiny decisions in aggregate end up being net negative. if that is an accurate assumption, what is the solution? perhaps a paradigm shift in retail tech that enables any manufacturer to engage in direct to consumer at far reduced complexity? micro/regional manufacturing?

v64 6y ago

It depends on your goal. If your goal is to optimize spending, go with Amazon. If your goal is to support mom and pops over multinational corporations, go with the mom and pop. I think NDizzle's point is that most peoples' rationale goes economically as you did, and that maybe we should reconsider that.

rc_mob 6y ago
Everyone is so afraid of one government world order. What about one corporation world order?

scrose 6y ago

It’s a balancing act between a short-term gain and a long-term loss. For a while, you may notice Amazon has slightly better prices on things. One day you may need some advice on a project, so you go to the local hardware store. Except the store was eventually run out of business by not being able to leverage the same economies of scale as an e-giant. I think of it less as investing in your local hardware, and more of investing in your community

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

sp332 6y ago

I think of it this way. £2 is nice and cheap but it's directly funding making the world worse. That's why in this case £3 is better as long as 0 of it goes to Amazon.

spoopyskelly 6y ago
Your local shitty store gives worse pay and benefits to their workers, and charges you more. Good job voting with your wallet.

benhurmarcel 6y ago

I'd consider an extra £1 fairly cheap to get them immediately, be sure they're not counterfeit, and not have to deal with receiving a package.

mdoms 6y ago

For such a small outlay yes you should support your local community. I can't believe this even needs to be said.

iguy 6y ago

Having things available right now, in small quantities, near to you, is precisely the service local hardware stores have always provided. For a small fee. Of course they can be had cheaper, and in a wider variety, from some huge warehouse further away. But then you can't get the job done this afternoon. The change from 1950s mail order is that the payment is easier, the shipping is (sometimes) faster, and that you might get the Chinese knock-off.

jeffrallen 6y ago

You can either "invest" in your local hardware store or "invest" in paying unemployment for your neighbors. Choose wisely.

throwaway201103 6y ago

Is it the same bolt? Or is the one from Amazon a cheap chinese bolt made with low-grade steel that will break when you tighten it?

burnthrow 6y ago

For saving $1, you get extra trash from shipping, have to track a package. And there's the waste of ordering it and having it shipped, some bloke's going to double park with hazard lights and walk the thing to your door. On the other hand, you're already there in the store, and the bolt could be yours without that nonsense. What's the value of that dollar then?

pb7 6y ago
Depends. You could also get into a car accident on the way to the store, someone could scratch your car in the parking lot, you could be the victim of a crime, and many other things that you and I can come up with. Then that dollar seems pretty significant.
- burnthrow 6y ago
  We live in remarkably different worlds. No car, and the likeliest crime here would be theft of the package itself.