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Most Americans Object to Government Tracking Their Activities Through Cellphones
- gruez 6y agoBut how many of them are going to flip over once the next crisis occurs?
- war1025 6y agoI'd guess it will go the other way, but probably that's just wishful thinking. This year has demonstrated quite well I think that old saying "If you trade freedom for safety, you get neither" But I guess I sort of despise my phone to begin with. For years I had a dumb phone, but they started turning off the towers. So now I have a smartphone but I never look at it and forget to take it with me most of the time when I leave the house. I'd happily downgrade back to a dumb phone if they made any in the old candy bar style. As it is, my desire to have a dumb phone is weaker than my desire not to have a flip phone.
- postingawayonhn 6y agoThere's tons of 4G 'dumb phones' available.
- war1025 6y agoYou say that, but attempting to get one that is compatible with Verizon's network is quite challenging, or at least it was a year or two ago when I looked.
- thekyle 6y agoWhy don't you switch to another network?
- war1025 6y agoBecause my family is on Verizon and we have a family plan. And also they have the best coverage for the parts of the US we end up in.
- rascul 6y agohttps://www.verizon.com/basic-phones/ https://www.verizon.com/basic-phones/
- war1025 6y agoExcept I said I don't want a flip phone, and all but one of those is a flip phone, and the other is some weird "ruggedized" model
- jkachmar 6y agoSmall point to make regarding your quote, since I see it come up very frequently in these sorts of conversations. > It is a quotation that defends the authority of a legislature to govern in the interests of collective security. It means, in context, not quite the opposite of what it's almost always quoted as saying but much closer to the opposite than to the thing that people think it means. Source: https://www.npr.org/2015/03/02/390245038/ben-franklins-famous-liberty-safety-quote-lost-its-context-in-21st-century https://www.npr.org/2015/03/02/390245038/ben-franklins-famou...
- dx87 6y agoYeah, the amount of people saying "fuck your freedom" when blanket lockdowns with no end date were announced at the start of the pandemic was disturbing. As much as they complain about the PATRIOT act and government overreach, you'd think they'd have a higher bar for giving up their rights.
- colejohnson66 6y agoThe lockdowns are different because it’s not just someone’s own freedoms, but everyone else’s right to life. A virus that can kill and we have no way of knowing how well it transmits seems like a good enough reason to enforce social distancing and the like. I have the freedom to own knives, but I can’t go out in public brandishing one like a weapon. Is that an infringement on my rights?
- aww_dang 6y agoWatch for that phrase, "this time is different". It commonly signals the special pleading fallacy. Parallel: "Spying one everyone's communication is different because it is not just someone's own freedoms, but everyone else's right to be protected from terrorists."
- albntomat0 6y agoI'm not sure that follows from the circumstances. There are plenty of instances of the government restricting individual freedoms for the safety of others. Examples include everything from speed limits to prohibitions against developing my own nuclear weapons. The balancing test is which freedoms for what degree of protection. We collectively make that determination through a system of government.
- aww_dang 6y agoIt depends upon the premise which you extrapolate from. You could start with the premise of natural rights as described in the founding documents. Alternatively you could proceed from a realpolitik perspective of what has been possible for the US gov historically and in the present. The government does many things and without exception these actions are construed as being for the public good. Despite this, we have witnessed countless abuses of authority. Simply observing that an action is possible for government or that a precedent exists for a particular government action, is not the same as rationalizing it as just. Of course there's still room for moderation and pragmatism. It would be impossible to exist in the real world without some measure of pragmatism, but we should also strive for our ideals.
- Lammy 6y agoProbably a lot of people here on HN too considering the tide of downvotes you will get if you say you don't approve of building new surveillance systems just because they are said to be for $disease_du_jour
- enriquto 6y agoThe headline cannot be true. Otherwise "most americans" wouldn't voluntarily sign-in to be tracked by buying said cellphones.
- aww_dang 6y ago"I object to having one less slice of cake, but I am still going to eat this slice of cake."
- enriquto 6y agoThis. Self righteous hypocrisy at its finest, with a large dose of cowardice.
- colejohnson66 6y agoWhen everyone has the same tracking terms in their contract, you don’t have a choice. It’s Evil#1 or Evil#2 - your choice.
- aww_dang 6y agoYou don't have to choose a cola. You could simply not drink anything. There's always a choice. Sometimes it is unpleasant or socially outlandish, but there is still a choice.
- zbrozek 6y agoIt's not remotely practicable. Go on and try. I look forward to the report proving otherwise after a year or three. You can't buy things, have accounts (including banking), get healthcare, or get anything done with local government without a phone number. Forced 2FA via SMS is only accelerating normalizing ubiquitous demands for phone numbers. Just as claims of fraud protection have normalized ubiquitous demands for SSNs or driver's license numbers. You can probably get by without a smartphone, but good luck getting by without a phone number. Probably the best you can hope to do is to get a number through an online service that doesn't connect to a large telco and which you access solely through Tor. But my money is on that system not working because you'll get stuck at infinite CAPTCHA loops or silently blocked for looking like abuse. This is absolutely a place where we need a legislative solution rather than a technological one. Unfortunately the government and corporate incentives aren't aligned with the citizens', so it's not going to happen.
- OpticalWindows 6y agoSo, uh, I guess we should, uh, limit government access to tracking data because uh government is the only organization that can send people to jail and fine people. Everyone on HN knows if the public is going to evaluate the ethics and metrics of tracking data we should investigate it at the source first with private telecom companies. They can somewhat freely sell all of that data to people who operate outside the law.
- mLuby 6y agoNit: companies fine people quite often.
- OpticalWindows 6y agoWith what mechanism? The law?
- dredmorbius 6y agoContracts, subject to collections and leins. Yes, law.
- afpx 6y agoHaving worked in the creepy business of "location analytics", I'll say that American's should be more worried about corporations tracking them, than governments.
- colejohnson66 6y agoThey’re both bad, but the government has the ability to put you in jail if they want based on anything because they have access to everything.
- mirthflat83 6y agoAnd the government has access to corporate data...
- rootsudo 6y agoAnd corporations can put you in corporate "jail", lock you out of online services, or just disable or delete your identity being judge, jury and executioner... With Government, there is some semblance of due process.
- countzachula 6y agoIF ONLY they would delete my online identity ;-). That aside, I can't tell if you're supporting or rebutting the OP's comment.
- syshum 6y agoWhile I agree both are bad, the government is far far worse than corporations disabling your accounts There are ways to migate the risk from corporations, and diservify that risk across several corporations There is not anyway to mitigate the risk from government, and the idea of "due process" is really a myth created by TV Shows With the number of criminal offenses if an agent of the government desires you to be in jail you go to jail. I guarantee you have done something, at some point that they can manipulate a jury into convicting you over We are a criminalized society, especially the US, the "land of the free" where we put more people in jail than anywhere in the world (officially anyway)
- merricksb 6y agohttps://archive.md/VSh27 https://archive.md/VSh27
- just-juan-post 6y agoDoesn't matter. You won't have a choice. Joe's Covid App (TM) is coming and you will either use it or your life will be no fun and majorly inconvenienced. I mean you don't NEED driver's license in the USA, do you?
- mindslight 6y agoThe push for any contact tracing apps will come from commercial businesses as a requirement to enter. Labeling it "Joe's Covid App" with an implication it's from the de jure government is a surefire way to make sure any criticisms you have become sidelined. Overall the whole situation is a predictable result of what happens to liberty in the face of force majeure. The current conditions have been directly caused by all the institutional dereliction of duty and personal irresponsibility from February to October. Along with freedom comes responsibility, and when you don't heed that responsibility your freedom disappears.
- zug_zug 6y agoGuess we need a national ballot referendum... Do such things exist?
- astura 6y agoNo
- sthnblllII 6y agoThat would really show the emperor has no clothes. Next we could have referendums on endless wars, healthcare and outsourcing all the jobs and when both parties still refuse to change anything a lot more of people will realize what's going on.
- dmje 6y agoThere's "objecting" and then "changing habits because of objections". Worlds apart.
- sthnblllII 6y agoNo one is getting rid of his phone, so I hope you mean people get rid of the habit of voting for the center right or center left party because the other one is "so bad".
- dkdk8283 6y agoI’ve started to leave my phone at home. It’s great.
- bigwavedave 6y agoI've tried that a few times- then I got lost and had no gps or ability to call anyone (and my city does not use the grid system). Eventually I stopped in a random suburb and knocked on a few doors until I found someone who was willing and able to tell me how to get somewhere I recognized. I was hopeless before Waze and similar apps became ubiquitous; I've always have to print out mapquest directions just to go to the store. For some reason, routing and directions can be very difficult for me.
- jmnicolas 6y agoI'm the complete opposite of you. In fact I resent GPS and use them only when I need to find an address in a big city. I'm not sure but I think it's trainable. About 20 years ago I had a transportation company and I invested in a GPS device for my van. After using it continuously for a few months, I noticed that I wasn't as good as before at orientation when I was driving my personal car without said GPS device. I then stopped using it completely and got back my inner GPS.
- ghaff 6y agoBack in the early days of GPS, I recognized that you could either navigate yourself or follow directions (whether from a machine or a person). I at any rate find that I don't really have the mental capacity to simultaneously follow instructions and think too deeply about whether this instruction seems to make sense or not. I assume this is at the root of people doing dumb things because the GPS told them to. If I didn't have a GPS in an unfamiliar area, I'd have a map. And if it were a remote area, I'd have both in any case. Although when traveling in normal times I do tend to depend on having my phone or at least access to a computer, the further I get from my home area, the more I try to have backups--including paper-based ones. But I expect that is increasingly uncommon.
- buffalobuffalo 6y agoI have a hard time even imagining a plausible scenario in which the government stops tracking phone activities (with the exception of maybe societal collapse). Does anyone actually think this is going to happen?
- known 6y agoIs it OK Google tracking us through cellphones
- nichos 6y agoUsing Google is voluntary.
- admin000001 6y agoGoogle is but a telecom is not. https://www.nytimes.com/2020/02/27/technology/fcc-location-data.html https://www.nytimes.com/2020/02/27/technology/fcc-location-d...
- superkuh 6y agoMost americans still carry cell phones with them so they can't object that much. Just stop carrying the tracking bracelet everywhere. Or at least take the battery out when not in use. It may sound infeasible but it really isn't.
- orhmeh09 6y agoSay it does sound infeasible to me that people would or even could do this —- could you clarify why you’re so sure?
- superkuh 6y agoI said, >Most americans still carry cell phones with them so they can't object that much. And now you're telling me that it's infeasible that they would object. Yes, that's what I said. But can they if they actually cared? Yes, easily. I just use a non-tracking dedicated car gps for directions. I use a camera instead of a camera phone, and so on. It's not infeasible.
- typenil 6y ago> Or at least take the battery out when not in use. What percentage of phones even have this option, these days? If, by "infeasible" you mean, "impossible" you're right. But it's not practical by any sense of the word.
- vaccinator 6y agoThe government is not allowed to directly spy on its citizen so it gets the data from other five-eyes countries, etc... when it feels like it should comply with the law
- vaccinator 6y agomost Americans? lol I'll believe it when I see it
- blackrock 6y agoPerhaps Americans should do something about it? You know, like vote. Oh wait... the peasants actually think they can tell the oligarchs what to do. LOL.
- joejohnson 6y agoThis is good to hear. I presume that this practice will soon be banned because America is a democracy.
- kmonsen 6y agoLol, not. Congress doesn't care much what the american people want, but rather disctract them with abortions and talks about scary socialism that might give them what they actually want and probably not what they fear. https://www.youtube.com/watch?list=PLKePI0ZbnT69klhhdVXnd9-eFdx5iIh5W&v=5tu32CCA_Ig&feature=emb_logo https://www.youtube.com/watch?list=PLKePI0ZbnT69klhhdVXnd9-e...
- rzz3 6y agoYet we vote for people who support it.
- mensetmanusman 6y agoThe government knows what’s best, nothing to see here.
- Woodi 6y agoWWW is what it is: Wild West ++ :) Simply: law not yet catched up with current technology and someone is monetizing. In ideal world self-spying on your nation would be unnecesary. But we are not ideal. So: the more privacy the better. That is why China and others are (curently) wasting themselves and keep being loosers. Take it from ex-Warsaw Pact country citizen: resources put into spying on your own people are wasted and create more and more opposition, which requiure more resources, more manpower and bureaucracy which keep undermine the "goal". Possibly distrust for own people was quite a factor in fall of Comunist quest for the world. And actually genocide was and is commies self-defeat "method".
- dkdk8283 6y agoWe should also reject ANPR.