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Agree on the pendulum analogy. Unions are effectively dead right now in 2020. A balance is needed, so you're seeing the shift back to protecting workers. But 40

Agree on the pendulum analogy. Unions are effectively dead right now in 2020. A balance is needed, so you're seeing the shift back to protecting workers. But 40 years of anti-workers-rights propaganda is a tough line to break through > What, besides achieving a union and negotiating power, would an amazon union want to be? Well, part of the issue is Amazon's union-busting efforts prevent that conversation from even happening[1]. But they do have specific demands[2]: """Employees backing the union effort said in interviews Tuesday that the issues at the warehouse include safety concerns, inadequate pay, and 12-hour shifts with insufficient breaks and unreasonable hourly quotas, after which they lose more of their day waiting unpaid in long lines for security checks.""" [1] https://www.vice.com/en/article/5dm8bx/leaked-amazon-memo-details-plan-to-smear-fired-warehouse-organizer-hes-not-smart-or-articulate https://www.vice.com/en/article/5dm8bx/leaked-amazon-memo-de... [2] https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-12-12/employees-at-amazon-s-new-nyc-warehouse-launch-unionization-push https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-12-12/employees...

dalbasal 6y ago
re: Amazon's union-busting efforts. This is one of the reasons I feel the pendulum has maxed. That said, this takes us straight to the familiar for/against discussion, just with a sharper edge. The union busting debate needs to be had too, but it doesn't tell us much about the type of union they want to build and what that means. The linked article (thanks) is another case in point, I think. It talks about union busting. Ways in which (like your quote) working conditions aren't good. ... OK. I don't mean to disparage... IMO, the elephant in the room isn't being addressed. What would a "union win" in amazon (or other young megacorp) mean? More pay, how much more, how would that work? Let's compare to another field: sports. The UFC is currently experiencing player union agitations. What a "union win" looks like is fairly defined. Other sports leagues are unionized. The realistic range of outcomes is understood. Forget the conflict side for a moment, what's the goal?
- SpicyLemonZest 6y ago
  It'd mean that working rules are set according to what feels fair rather than the minimum standards of the law. The security line thing is I think emblematic of the problem; anyone can see you ought to be paid during the time you're stuck on company property and not allowed to leave, but Amazon contractors (with Supreme Court support: https://www.oyez.org/cases/2014/13-433 https://www.oyez.org/cases/2014/13-433) say they're not legally obligated to pay so they won't.
  - quibbler 6y ago
    There is no law that says you have to enter a contract that only gives you the minimum requirements of the law. (ianal, though). If you are unhappy with a contract, don't sign it.
    - comex 6y ago
      That’s essentially what a union is: a mechanism for collective negotiation of employment contracts.
    - SpicyLemonZest 6y ago
      I agree with what you're saying, and I'm very skeptical of the argument you sometimes see that everyone ought to unionize out of solidarity. But some workers don't feel they can get a contract they're happy with on their own, and for people in that situation unionization makes sense.
    - arrosenberg 6y ago
      Law of nature says people have to eat. Amazon warehouse worker is a low-skill, low-education job - how much bargaining leverage do you think an individual has in this situation?
      - quibbler 6y ago
        The proper response to helping those people is to create more jobs, so that they have alternative choices. It is not Amazon's fault that these people are low skilled and hungry. Amazon should be applauded for giving low skilled people job opportunities, not be attacked for it.
TedDoesntTalk 6y ago
> Unions are effectively dead right now in 2020 The rampant corruption in American unions contributed to this. Here’s the most recent instance: https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nytimes.com/2020/08/27/business/uaw-dennis-williams.amp.html https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nytimes.com/2020/08/27/busi...
- rayiner 6y ago
  Embezzlement to use union funds for personal expenses? That’s pretty low grade corruption. This sort of thing happens in private corporations and it rarely gets prosecuted unless it’s huge. We tend to hold Union officials to standards of conduct more similar to public employees and elected officials, rather than their private sector counterparts. I’m not sure that makes much sense.
  - refurb 6y ago
    Embezzlement by a union official does more to hurt unions than embezzlement by some random public official hurts public perception of the govt. Union leaders talk about fighting for workers. Pay your dues, they go to fighting for worker rights. We’re here to look out for you. When the people representing you start stealing your money it makes you wonder how much they are looking out for you.
  - xyzzyz 6y ago
    I wouldn’t call “ex-president of the union being 15th person charged in conspiracy embezzlement” a low grade corruption: if that’s low grade, what would high grade corruption look like?
    - 9387367 6y ago
      > if that’s low grade, what would high grade corruption look like? Look up and read: * Jennifer Arcuri’s funding application form. * Current Coronavirus government contracts in the UK and US * In the UK you could start with the UK's National Audit Office (NAO) * In the US look up Jared Kushner's coronavirus task force * In Israel, Netanyahu’s series of corruption cases

dalbasal 6y ago

re: Amazon's union-busting efforts. This is one of the reasons I feel the pendulum has maxed. That said, this takes us straight to the familiar for/against discussion, just with a sharper edge. The union busting debate needs to be had too, but it doesn't tell us much about the type of union they want to build and what that means. The linked article (thanks) is another case in point, I think. It talks about union busting. Ways in which (like your quote) working conditions aren't good. ... OK. I don't mean to disparage... IMO, the elephant in the room isn't being addressed. What would a "union win" in amazon (or other young megacorp) mean? More pay, how much more, how would that work? Let's compare to another field: sports. The UFC is currently experiencing player union agitations. What a "union win" looks like is fairly defined. Other sports leagues are unionized. The realistic range of outcomes is understood. Forget the conflict side for a moment, what's the goal?

SpicyLemonZest 6y ago
It'd mean that working rules are set according to what feels fair rather than the minimum standards of the law. The security line thing is I think emblematic of the problem; anyone can see you ought to be paid during the time you're stuck on company property and not allowed to leave, but Amazon contractors (with Supreme Court support: https://www.oyez.org/cases/2014/13-433 https://www.oyez.org/cases/2014/13-433) say they're not legally obligated to pay so they won't.
- quibbler 6y ago
  There is no law that says you have to enter a contract that only gives you the minimum requirements of the law. (ianal, though). If you are unhappy with a contract, don't sign it.
  - comex 6y ago
    That’s essentially what a union is: a mechanism for collective negotiation of employment contracts.
  - SpicyLemonZest 6y ago
    I agree with what you're saying, and I'm very skeptical of the argument you sometimes see that everyone ought to unionize out of solidarity. But some workers don't feel they can get a contract they're happy with on their own, and for people in that situation unionization makes sense.
  - arrosenberg 6y ago
    Law of nature says people have to eat. Amazon warehouse worker is a low-skill, low-education job - how much bargaining leverage do you think an individual has in this situation?
    - quibbler 6y ago
      The proper response to helping those people is to create more jobs, so that they have alternative choices. It is not Amazon's fault that these people are low skilled and hungry. Amazon should be applauded for giving low skilled people job opportunities, not be attacked for it.

TedDoesntTalk 6y ago

> Unions are effectively dead right now in 2020 The rampant corruption in American unions contributed to this. Here’s the most recent instance: https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nytimes.com/2020/08/27/business/uaw-dennis-williams.amp.html https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nytimes.com/2020/08/27/busi...

rayiner 6y ago
Embezzlement to use union funds for personal expenses? That’s pretty low grade corruption. This sort of thing happens in private corporations and it rarely gets prosecuted unless it’s huge. We tend to hold Union officials to standards of conduct more similar to public employees and elected officials, rather than their private sector counterparts. I’m not sure that makes much sense.
- refurb 6y ago
  Embezzlement by a union official does more to hurt unions than embezzlement by some random public official hurts public perception of the govt. Union leaders talk about fighting for workers. Pay your dues, they go to fighting for worker rights. We’re here to look out for you. When the people representing you start stealing your money it makes you wonder how much they are looking out for you.
- xyzzyz 6y ago
  I wouldn’t call “ex-president of the union being 15th person charged in conspiracy embezzlement” a low grade corruption: if that’s low grade, what would high grade corruption look like?
  - 9387367 6y ago
    > if that’s low grade, what would high grade corruption look like? Look up and read: * Jennifer Arcuri’s funding application form. * Current Coronavirus government contracts in the UK and US * In the UK you could start with the UK's National Audit Office (NAO) * In the US look up Jared Kushner's coronavirus task force * In Israel, Netanyahu’s series of corruption cases