13 ms·

Legally operating a job board in Japan

122 points by bemmu 6y ago

trinovantes 6y ago
I'm curious what's the typical salary for devs at Japanese startups. I'm assuming it should at least be higher than megacorps which, from what I understand, are more traditional and based on years spent at the company. I also wonder how much culture clash there are for foreigners working at these companies e.g. how do they handle conflicts or disagreements with seniority.
- MeinBlutIstBlau 6y ago
  Japanese employee to employer relationships are like working in a normal corporate environment however there is no negotiation and the raises are small. The trade-off is their decent salaries and you have stable employment.
- tjpnz 6y ago
  >I also wonder how much culture clash there are for foreigners working at these companies e.g. how do they handle conflicts or disagreements with seniority. Can't speak for startups but megacorps started in the last 10 years tend to be pretty chill places to work with good pay and perks. My current team is managed by a foreigner and there's a 50/50 split between local and foreign engineers. I haven't personally had any issues attributable to culture, they can still happen but you tend to have to go looking for them.
- cirno 6y ago
  Exceptions abound, but in general software development jobs even at smaller studios pay a lot less in Japan than in the US. In Tokyo you'd expect to make around 400,000 yen a month, which is about $3500 a month. That sounds nice until you see that a 400sqft apartment with no bedrooms can cost 100,000 yen or more. A one bedroom can hit 150,000 - 200,000 yen in a nice area with convenient access to train stations. Edit: the website linked has good statistics on this: https://www.tokyodev.com/2020/01/07/japan-developer-salaries/ https://www.tokyodev.com/2020/01/07/japan-developer-salaries... Notably, "this 2018 survey conducted by the Japanese government found that the average "System Engineer" (a roughly analogous position to a software developer) in Japan had 12 years of experience and an annual compensation of ¥5.5 million."
  - mehrzad 6y ago
    It's fascinating to me hearing about how Hong Kong and Tokyo have similar cost of living to even some of the most expensive metros in the US, but the pay isn't as competitive. It makes me wonder why the market hasn't adjusted (by people moving to smaller cities, pay raises, etc).
    - MattGaiser 6y ago
      We have the same issue in Canada as well. Toronto and Vancouver, our two most expensive cities, have salaries below many other cities while having some of the highest housing costs.
      - smnrchrds 6y ago
        It's not Canada or Japan or UK that is special, it's the US. If you imagine US tech salary levels are normal, you would come to the conclusion that the entire rest of the world underpays their developers. But at that point, wouldn't it be more accurate to say other countries' salaries ought to be what defines 'normal' and US salaries are the exceptional case, not the other way around?
    - robjan 6y ago
      I live in Hong Kong. We have 0% capital gains tax, 0% dividend tax and my effective income tax is around 5%. Many people get this down to 0% by getting married, having kids, giving money to their parents, offsetting against mortgage interest payments etc. Healthcare is a lot cheaper than in the US too. Living here is definitely workable. Adding to that, most people live with their family until they get married in their early thirties and over half of the permanent resident population live in very heavily subsidised public housing.
      - gautamcgoel 6y ago
        How do you like HK? Would you recommend it to an American?
    - ehnto 6y ago
- m3at 6y ago
  Your question is too broad, but to give at least one data point: a data science dev with a few years of experience (1 to 5), can expect between ¥6M and ¥12M/year in a startup. > it should at least be higher than megacorps Yes, with exceptions > how much culture clash there are for foreigners In my subjective and limited experience, not much. Start-ups in Japan are rare (compared to most tech cities), Japanese founders/employees often do not want to emulate the working culture of big companies, on the contrary they might work in a startup to avoid it. Knowledge of English and living abroad experience also seem more common than average
- wirthjason 6y ago
  I’m American, my wife is Japanese, we have a young half daughter. (I also studied Japanese in college and lived here, so it would be a good culture fit for myself.) When I’ve broadly looked into working in Japan the pay seems to be better for foreign companies than domestic ones. But on the whole, I think the job opportunities are less. A large foreign company like say Google or an international bank will pay more competitive wages than a domestic company. While startups likely have more variability in pay the same pattern holds. I’ve seen ranges senior devs that are for approx $70k USD. That’s a huge pay cut for someone coming from the US. If you were teaching English in Japan that would be a huge step up however. Similarly culture will be better for a foreign company than a domestic one — hours, overtime, company politics, etc. Your language ability would also be a critical factor. Consequently, for me, it seems better to develop a career in the US and visit Japan. Now a company that is 100% remote that would allow you to live anywhere in the world and pay US wages would be an interesting opportunity.
  - mikeomoto 6y ago
    > Seems better to develop a career in the US and visit Japan There's another school of thought here; there's actually a lot of value that you could bring by emphasizing the fact that you can act as a bridge between foreign engineers and japanese ones.
  - ehnto 6y ago
    > Now a company that is 100% remote that would allow you to live anywhere in the world and pay US wages would be an interesting opportunity. They exist, but you don't just get free reign to work wherever you want. Most countries tax systems are not well equipped to handle international income, so you have to figure that out for every country you stay in, or try to fly under the radar and potentially commit a felony in a foreign country. It's getting better though, with some countries starting to offer specific visas and tax options for digital nomad style living.
    - suyash 6y ago
      yes, most companies that allow remote work pay according to cost of living
- zeronone 6y ago
  Here are some good resources on tech salaries in Tokyo/Japan. https://japan-dev.com/blog/software-developer-salaries-in-japan-the-ultimate-guide https://japan-dev.com/blog/software-developer-salaries-in-ja... https://opensalary.jp/en/ https://opensalary.jp/en/
jmpman 6y ago
Seems like jobs boards in the US which imply a preference or prejudice based upon race, color, religion, sex or national origin would be a Title VII violation and subject any employee advertising on such boards to sanctions. Yet you’ll find web sites such as blackjobs.com with fbi.gov as the first post.
samsquire 6y ago
A job is something people need to eat. Why should you need a licence to connect jobs to people? The law is wrong.
- TulliusCicero 6y ago
  People need food to eat; that doesn't mean that food regulations are wrong. People need healthcare to remain healthy instead of not dead; that doesn't mean medical licensing is bad. I have no idea whether these particular regulations for recruiters make sense or not, but just because something is fundamental to living doesn't mean regulating it is automatically a bad idea.
  - cryptica 6y ago
    I disagree with the premise that regulations are necessary. They're bandage patch solutions. Artificially restricting the number of people who can go to medical schools by imposing ridiculous requirements is not going to make better surgeons; it will mostly just drive up prices like in the US. About food regulations; if a product uses dangerous chemicals (for example), in a proper free market, that should give alternative products a competitive advantage. The problem is not lack of regulations; it's the lack of a free market and free exchange of information. Regulations exist to prevent abuse. If companies couldn't get away with abusing their customers (without going bankrupt), we wouldn't need regulations in the first place. In any case, large corporations which essentially have immunity from the law usually find clever ways to work around the regulations without fixing the underlying problem. A better solution would be to stop propping up big corporations with infinite fiat currency; big corporations are riddled with blind spots and they are devoid of any sense of accountability due to inherent flaws in the concept of corporate personhood; big corporations are not meant to exist and they wouldn't exist if not for all that free fiat which is creating an artificial anti-competitive moat around them. Competition and churn is necessary for a proper functioning capitalist system. Our current monetary system is all about propping up zombie corporations by giving them unlimited free money which allows them to get away with everything. The way our economy works now is basically like a son who is CEO and who keeps getting caught doing drugs and getting in trouble and then rich daddy keeps bailing them out over and over again and then bribing journalists to keep quiet so that nobody finds out... Regulations are the equivalent of sending the son to rehab; except it's all a PR stunt and the son will be back to doing drugs and causing problems within a few weeks. The solution is to fire the spoiled brat and let someone else do the job; someone who is passionate about it and can do it right. Supply-side economics have distorted the way people think about the economy. Instead of figuring out what consumers need and working backwards from that, companies are constantly trying to figure out how to use up all available resources (e.g. capital, people, raw materials) and then resorting to advertising to convince consumers that they need whatever it is that they ended up producing. It's madness. All the talk about 'product-market fit' is delusional; it's mostly about fitting the customer to the product than the other way around. Advertising and A/B testing is not about improving the product to fit the user, it's about manipulating the user to buy the product.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
White_Wolf 6y ago
tbh I do understand the need for a license. I wish something like this were implemented in UK with a mandatory knowledge requirement for the recruiter about the field they are recruiting in. This would save all parties wasted time and travel. I have been in situations when "the agent" sent me to a pharma lab to interview for a purchasing role when I used to do purchasing in the constructions industry.
- seniorivn 6y ago
  who hired that agent? you? how did you choose him? it's entirely possible that there is an effective solution without involving inefficient government bureaucracy
  - White_Wolf 6y ago
    It was hired by the lab. The agent contacted me via Linked In. I won't say hard words about the agent even though I'm tempted. It was not the first or the last time something like that happened. As much as I hate gov butting in in general... I can see recruitment companies self-regulating just as well as advertising/tech companies.
- dkdk8283 6y ago
  I’m generally anti regulation. Shouldn’t we teach people to question what they read in addition to how to read? This places a bias on personal liberty. Regulation and licensing introduces change. There’s no stipulation whether the change is positive or negative, and to again make a change once it’s set generally requires lobbyists and lots of money in the US. Having worked in NYC with union workers I have witnessed how easily it can be abused. Is there any reason why we want to double down on this model? Are we all so blind fed by outrage and/or social media we accept emotions instead of debate? These are the kinds of things I want to see. The human fallacy is known and quantified, although, as far as I know it’s abused / exploited instead of providing neutral ground for policy discussion.
- Zak 6y ago
  This seems like a problem that could be solved by a professional association rather than regulation. The association could advertise the competence of, and impose quality standards on its members.
paledot 6y ago
Headline: running a job board can land you in prison Article: running a job board can't land you in prison
- pwim 6y ago
  Well, potentially it can if you aren't following the regulations, and it is classified as recruiting. For instance, if your job board recommends sends recommendations to individuals to apply to a certain job based on their profile, even if this is automated, it is potentially going to be considered as recruiting, thus requiring a license. For this reason, some of the major Japanese recruiting platforms, such as Wantedly, which offers a LinkedIn like social network around job hunting, has obtained a recruitment license, though they aren't doing what we would traditionally think of as recruitment.
aikinai 6y ago
It's interesting he says that the guidelines "aren't the easiest thing to read." I'm a native English speaker and non-native Japanese speaker and I've found that it's far easier for me to go straight to the source with Japanese legal documents, including guidelines like these and even the actual text of the law. I guess it's a cultural thing, but they're always written extremely clearly with basic grammar and everyday vocabulary, almost making it feel elementary if you're used to the English way of writing legal text as abstruse as possible.
jwmoz 6y ago
Japan is cool but everyone I've spoken to that works there complains about the work ethic-long hours, over worked etc.

122 points by bemmu 6y ago

I'm curious what's the typical salary for devs at Japanese startups. I'm assuming it should at least be higher than megacorps which, from what I understand, are more traditional and based on years spent at the company. I also wonder how much culture clash there are for foreigners working at these companies e.g. how do they handle conflicts or disagreements with seniority.

MeinBlutIstBlau 6y ago
Japanese employee to employer relationships are like working in a normal corporate environment however there is no negotiation and the raises are small. The trade-off is their decent salaries and you have stable employment.
tjpnz 6y ago
>I also wonder how much culture clash there are for foreigners working at these companies e.g. how do they handle conflicts or disagreements with seniority. Can't speak for startups but megacorps started in the last 10 years tend to be pretty chill places to work with good pay and perks. My current team is managed by a foreigner and there's a 50/50 split between local and foreign engineers. I haven't personally had any issues attributable to culture, they can still happen but you tend to have to go looking for them.
cirno 6y ago
Exceptions abound, but in general software development jobs even at smaller studios pay a lot less in Japan than in the US. In Tokyo you'd expect to make around 400,000 yen a month, which is about $3500 a month. That sounds nice until you see that a 400sqft apartment with no bedrooms can cost 100,000 yen or more. A one bedroom can hit 150,000 - 200,000 yen in a nice area with convenient access to train stations. Edit: the website linked has good statistics on this: https://www.tokyodev.com/2020/01/07/japan-developer-salaries/ https://www.tokyodev.com/2020/01/07/japan-developer-salaries... Notably, "this 2018 survey conducted by the Japanese government found that the average "System Engineer" (a roughly analogous position to a software developer) in Japan had 12 years of experience and an annual compensation of ¥5.5 million."
- mehrzad 6y ago
  It's fascinating to me hearing about how Hong Kong and Tokyo have similar cost of living to even some of the most expensive metros in the US, but the pay isn't as competitive. It makes me wonder why the market hasn't adjusted (by people moving to smaller cities, pay raises, etc).
  - MattGaiser 6y ago
    We have the same issue in Canada as well. Toronto and Vancouver, our two most expensive cities, have salaries below many other cities while having some of the highest housing costs.
    - smnrchrds 6y ago
      It's not Canada or Japan or UK that is special, it's the US. If you imagine US tech salary levels are normal, you would come to the conclusion that the entire rest of the world underpays their developers. But at that point, wouldn't it be more accurate to say other countries' salaries ought to be what defines 'normal' and US salaries are the exceptional case, not the other way around?
  - robjan 6y ago
    I live in Hong Kong. We have 0% capital gains tax, 0% dividend tax and my effective income tax is around 5%. Many people get this down to 0% by getting married, having kids, giving money to their parents, offsetting against mortgage interest payments etc. Healthcare is a lot cheaper than in the US too. Living here is definitely workable. Adding to that, most people live with their family until they get married in their early thirties and over half of the permanent resident population live in very heavily subsidised public housing.
    - gautamcgoel 6y ago
      How do you like HK? Would you recommend it to an American?
  - ehnto 6y ago
m3at 6y ago
Your question is too broad, but to give at least one data point: a data science dev with a few years of experience (1 to 5), can expect between ¥6M and ¥12M/year in a startup. > it should at least be higher than megacorps Yes, with exceptions > how much culture clash there are for foreigners In my subjective and limited experience, not much. Start-ups in Japan are rare (compared to most tech cities), Japanese founders/employees often do not want to emulate the working culture of big companies, on the contrary they might work in a startup to avoid it. Knowledge of English and living abroad experience also seem more common than average
wirthjason 6y ago
I’m American, my wife is Japanese, we have a young half daughter. (I also studied Japanese in college and lived here, so it would be a good culture fit for myself.) When I’ve broadly looked into working in Japan the pay seems to be better for foreign companies than domestic ones. But on the whole, I think the job opportunities are less. A large foreign company like say Google or an international bank will pay more competitive wages than a domestic company. While startups likely have more variability in pay the same pattern holds. I’ve seen ranges senior devs that are for approx $70k USD. That’s a huge pay cut for someone coming from the US. If you were teaching English in Japan that would be a huge step up however. Similarly culture will be better for a foreign company than a domestic one — hours, overtime, company politics, etc. Your language ability would also be a critical factor. Consequently, for me, it seems better to develop a career in the US and visit Japan. Now a company that is 100% remote that would allow you to live anywhere in the world and pay US wages would be an interesting opportunity.
- mikeomoto 6y ago
  > Seems better to develop a career in the US and visit Japan There's another school of thought here; there's actually a lot of value that you could bring by emphasizing the fact that you can act as a bridge between foreign engineers and japanese ones.
- ehnto 6y ago
  > Now a company that is 100% remote that would allow you to live anywhere in the world and pay US wages would be an interesting opportunity. They exist, but you don't just get free reign to work wherever you want. Most countries tax systems are not well equipped to handle international income, so you have to figure that out for every country you stay in, or try to fly under the radar and potentially commit a felony in a foreign country. It's getting better though, with some countries starting to offer specific visas and tax options for digital nomad style living.
  - suyash 6y ago
    yes, most companies that allow remote work pay according to cost of living
zeronone 6y ago
Here are some good resources on tech salaries in Tokyo/Japan. https://japan-dev.com/blog/software-developer-salaries-in-japan-the-ultimate-guide https://japan-dev.com/blog/software-developer-salaries-in-ja... https://opensalary.jp/en/ https://opensalary.jp/en/

jmpman 6y ago

Seems like jobs boards in the US which imply a preference or prejudice based upon race, color, religion, sex or national origin would be a Title VII violation and subject any employee advertising on such boards to sanctions. Yet you’ll find web sites such as blackjobs.com with fbi.gov as the first post.

samsquire 6y ago

A job is something people need to eat. Why should you need a licence to connect jobs to people? The law is wrong.

TulliusCicero 6y ago
People need food to eat; that doesn't mean that food regulations are wrong. People need healthcare to remain healthy instead of not dead; that doesn't mean medical licensing is bad. I have no idea whether these particular regulations for recruiters make sense or not, but just because something is fundamental to living doesn't mean regulating it is automatically a bad idea.
- cryptica 6y ago
  I disagree with the premise that regulations are necessary. They're bandage patch solutions. Artificially restricting the number of people who can go to medical schools by imposing ridiculous requirements is not going to make better surgeons; it will mostly just drive up prices like in the US. About food regulations; if a product uses dangerous chemicals (for example), in a proper free market, that should give alternative products a competitive advantage. The problem is not lack of regulations; it's the lack of a free market and free exchange of information. Regulations exist to prevent abuse. If companies couldn't get away with abusing their customers (without going bankrupt), we wouldn't need regulations in the first place. In any case, large corporations which essentially have immunity from the law usually find clever ways to work around the regulations without fixing the underlying problem. A better solution would be to stop propping up big corporations with infinite fiat currency; big corporations are riddled with blind spots and they are devoid of any sense of accountability due to inherent flaws in the concept of corporate personhood; big corporations are not meant to exist and they wouldn't exist if not for all that free fiat which is creating an artificial anti-competitive moat around them. Competition and churn is necessary for a proper functioning capitalist system. Our current monetary system is all about propping up zombie corporations by giving them unlimited free money which allows them to get away with everything. The way our economy works now is basically like a son who is CEO and who keeps getting caught doing drugs and getting in trouble and then rich daddy keeps bailing them out over and over again and then bribing journalists to keep quiet so that nobody finds out... Regulations are the equivalent of sending the son to rehab; except it's all a PR stunt and the son will be back to doing drugs and causing problems within a few weeks. The solution is to fire the spoiled brat and let someone else do the job; someone who is passionate about it and can do it right. Supply-side economics have distorted the way people think about the economy. Instead of figuring out what consumers need and working backwards from that, companies are constantly trying to figure out how to use up all available resources (e.g. capital, people, raw materials) and then resorting to advertising to convince consumers that they need whatever it is that they ended up producing. It's madness. All the talk about 'product-market fit' is delusional; it's mostly about fitting the customer to the product than the other way around. Advertising and A/B testing is not about improving the product to fit the user, it's about manipulating the user to buy the product.

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

White_Wolf 6y ago

tbh I do understand the need for a license. I wish something like this were implemented in UK with a mandatory knowledge requirement for the recruiter about the field they are recruiting in. This would save all parties wasted time and travel. I have been in situations when "the agent" sent me to a pharma lab to interview for a purchasing role when I used to do purchasing in the constructions industry.

seniorivn 6y ago
who hired that agent? you? how did you choose him? it's entirely possible that there is an effective solution without involving inefficient government bureaucracy
- White_Wolf 6y ago
  It was hired by the lab. The agent contacted me via Linked In. I won't say hard words about the agent even though I'm tempted. It was not the first or the last time something like that happened. As much as I hate gov butting in in general... I can see recruitment companies self-regulating just as well as advertising/tech companies.
dkdk8283 6y ago
I’m generally anti regulation. Shouldn’t we teach people to question what they read in addition to how to read? This places a bias on personal liberty. Regulation and licensing introduces change. There’s no stipulation whether the change is positive or negative, and to again make a change once it’s set generally requires lobbyists and lots of money in the US. Having worked in NYC with union workers I have witnessed how easily it can be abused. Is there any reason why we want to double down on this model? Are we all so blind fed by outrage and/or social media we accept emotions instead of debate? These are the kinds of things I want to see. The human fallacy is known and quantified, although, as far as I know it’s abused / exploited instead of providing neutral ground for policy discussion.
Zak 6y ago
This seems like a problem that could be solved by a professional association rather than regulation. The association could advertise the competence of, and impose quality standards on its members.

paledot 6y ago

Headline: running a job board can land you in prison Article: running a job board can't land you in prison

pwim 6y ago
Well, potentially it can if you aren't following the regulations, and it is classified as recruiting. For instance, if your job board recommends sends recommendations to individuals to apply to a certain job based on their profile, even if this is automated, it is potentially going to be considered as recruiting, thus requiring a license. For this reason, some of the major Japanese recruiting platforms, such as Wantedly, which offers a LinkedIn like social network around job hunting, has obtained a recruitment license, though they aren't doing what we would traditionally think of as recruitment.

aikinai 6y ago

It's interesting he says that the guidelines "aren't the easiest thing to read." I'm a native English speaker and non-native Japanese speaker and I've found that it's far easier for me to go straight to the source with Japanese legal documents, including guidelines like these and even the actual text of the law. I guess it's a cultural thing, but they're always written extremely clearly with basic grammar and everyday vocabulary, almost making it feel elementary if you're used to the English way of writing legal text as abstruse as possible.

jwmoz 6y ago

Japan is cool but everyone I've spoken to that works there complains about the work ethic-long hours, over worked etc.