4 ms·

What does "classical" mean in this context? My benchmark for the term "classical" is traditional European classical music, and so I'm having a hard time underst

by scoot 6y ago

What does "classical" mean in this context? My benchmark for the term "classical" is traditional European classical music, and so I'm having a hard time understanding where this fits in the Indian musical spectrum, either stylistically or temporally.

embit 6y ago
My definition of classical music is “always contemporary’
brainless 6y ago
Classical in general means music from 1800 period in Europe but you can easily imagine other cultures having their own music from older era that's termed as "Classical".
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- siltpotato 6y ago
  The meaning of "classical" with a lowercase 'c' refers to elite music with theory built around it from any culture; most people are not referring to the "Classical" with a capital 'C' period of European culture.
abdullahkhalids 6y ago
There are many people who think that the term "classical" does not apply to South Asian music of this form, because it is still being actively created and practiced. And while the style of this music has evolved quite a bit, new instruments introduced, the essential features have not gone away. This music is also not written down (intentionally, I might add), so while roughly the same forms have been practiced for 100s of years, most of what is remembered and played is from the past 150 years or so. You can call this era classical, if you will.
bakul 6y ago
You may wish to check out https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_classical_music https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_classical_music
schrectacular 6y ago
I think a good rule of thumb for any society's "classical" music is "what do the cultural elites coalesce around" - so in western society the political, business, and academic elites go and be elite-y at the symphony or the opera. In India "educated" or "learned" people will be intimately familiar with many of "raags/ragas" which can be thought of as "tunes" (but they are deeper than that). These ragas are usually meant to be played at different times of day/year or to evoke certain moods. Players will improvise these raags, interpreting not only their "version" of the song, but custom jamming a version specifically for that place and time and audience. Some of these raags have a very long history. I think when people talk about "classical" Indian music this is what they mean. Temporary it's deeply historical music that is constantly evolving. I'm generalizing and glossing over so much to be brief, and much of this varies by region and tradition, but that's a gist.
- danans 6y ago
  In addition to what you've said about the eliteness, it's also music around which a rigorous theoretical system has developed. This is on contrast to folk music, which focuses less on theory. In India, which just as in the west, development of the theory was aided by the patronage of the wealthy/elite. Also as in the west the theoretical system serves the purposes of preservation, reproducibility, and most of all, pedagogy.
- vatkhrt 6y ago
  Its interesting that in the "long history" of some of these raags, many have moved from folk into the classical realm. To name a few - Mand, Khamaj, Desh. There is also the diffusion of some classical ragas into wider collective conscience through film music, and other forms of "light" music.
JoeDaDude 6y ago
When I wanted to learn about Indian classical music, I was pointed to the youtube channel of Anuja Kamat [1]. Disclaimer: I haven't watched enough to present an informed opinion as of yet. https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCs6OTIFV53Z-EGT84lxTvqQ https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCs6OTIFV53Z-EGT84lxTvqQ
- trianglem 6y ago
  Anuja does a fantastic job of explaining a lot of Indian classical music in layman’s terms. Brilliant channel, highly recommended!
- scoot 6y ago
  Thanks! From what I've watched so far, she's wonderfully engaging and enthusiastic about the subject.
marcescence 6y ago
I think the term "court music" is more clear
- puranjay 6y ago
  A lot of classical music is also temple (or church) music.
trianglem 6y ago
Classical in Indian music is more a genre than music that was created in a certain time period. Not sure if that’s the same with European classical music.
sn41 6y ago
Classical in the sense that this is a tradition of sufficient vintage, backed by a theory of music. There are at least 2 distinct systems of Indian music which are called classical. 1. Carnatic - the south Indian classical music. Traditionally Purandara Dasa is supposed to be the originator, from around the 13th century. This came up in the Vijayanagar empire. But there are older composers like Vyasa Raya whose compositions are still popular.(1) 2. Hindustani - the north Indian classical music, origins attributed to Amir Khusro, around 12-13 century.(2) There are older musical systems, for example, Sopana system in Kerala. (3) Moreover, instruments like the Veena (the Indian lute) are much older, as can be attested from Gupta era paintings (6th century A.D.), so it is possible that a lot of the history is now lost. (4) The ragas are arranged in a combinatorial manner, roughly, out of 12 notes, how many harmonious combinations can be made? (5) Related: combinatorics was used in prosody, in addition to music: One of the earliest occurrenc of the Pascal's triangle is in Indian prosody. (6) (1) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carnatic_music https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carnatic_music (2) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hindustani_classical_music https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hindustani_classical_music (3) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sopana_Sangeetham https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sopana_Sangeetham (4) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veena https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veena (5) https://cs.uwaterloo.ca/journals/JIS/VOL5/Balasubramanian/bala6.html https://cs.uwaterloo.ca/journals/JIS/VOL5/Balasubramanian/ba... (6) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pascal%27s_triangle#History https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pascal%27s_triangle#History
- cpgonzalez 6y ago
  wow
- bovermyer 6y ago
  Thank you for that. I learned something.
- wavefunction 6y ago
  Thank you for this excellent post.
- croh 6y ago
  There is also a semi-classical genre evolved from musical dramas. Sadly it is not mainstream anymore. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sangeet_Natak https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sangeet_Natak https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kdlLqzs9LKk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kdlLqzs9LKk There is an interesting form of performance called Jugalbandi where different artists perform duet (mostly without rehearsal). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jugalbandi https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jugalbandi Another rare video - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lk60ObnbIOk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lk60ObnbIOk
abishekk92 6y ago
Indian classical music, especially carnatic has a tremendous amount of music theory. I highly recommend T.M. Krishna's "A Southern Music: The Karnatik Story"[0] or this strangeloop talk [1] [0] - https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/20320205-a-southern-music https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/20320205-a-southern-musi... [1] - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u9CGcusOz60 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u9CGcusOz60
Karishma1234 6y ago
There are two major classical music traditions in India. Hindustani (Indian which is influenced by both Hinduism and later Islamic contribution, Carnatic which is mostly Hindu). People familiar with Indian music can easily distinguish between classical music and non classical music but for a layman like me the test is : 1. Is the piece being based on some well known Raga (Raga - is a mood or a tune in very rough sense). 2. Is it being sung by a person with years of training in classical music which is learned from a Guru.

by scoot 6y ago

embit 6y ago

My definition of classical music is “always contemporary’

brainless 6y ago

Classical in general means music from 1800 period in Europe but you can easily imagine other cultures having their own music from older era that's termed as "Classical".

deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
siltpotato 6y ago
The meaning of "classical" with a lowercase 'c' refers to elite music with theory built around it from any culture; most people are not referring to the "Classical" with a capital 'C' period of European culture.

abdullahkhalids 6y ago

There are many people who think that the term "classical" does not apply to South Asian music of this form, because it is still being actively created and practiced. And while the style of this music has evolved quite a bit, new instruments introduced, the essential features have not gone away. This music is also not written down (intentionally, I might add), so while roughly the same forms have been practiced for 100s of years, most of what is remembered and played is from the past 150 years or so. You can call this era classical, if you will.

bakul 6y ago

You may wish to check out https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_classical_music https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_classical_music

schrectacular 6y ago

I think a good rule of thumb for any society's "classical" music is "what do the cultural elites coalesce around" - so in western society the political, business, and academic elites go and be elite-y at the symphony or the opera. In India "educated" or "learned" people will be intimately familiar with many of "raags/ragas" which can be thought of as "tunes" (but they are deeper than that). These ragas are usually meant to be played at different times of day/year or to evoke certain moods. Players will improvise these raags, interpreting not only their "version" of the song, but custom jamming a version specifically for that place and time and audience. Some of these raags have a very long history. I think when people talk about "classical" Indian music this is what they mean. Temporary it's deeply historical music that is constantly evolving. I'm generalizing and glossing over so much to be brief, and much of this varies by region and tradition, but that's a gist.

danans 6y ago
In addition to what you've said about the eliteness, it's also music around which a rigorous theoretical system has developed. This is on contrast to folk music, which focuses less on theory. In India, which just as in the west, development of the theory was aided by the patronage of the wealthy/elite. Also as in the west the theoretical system serves the purposes of preservation, reproducibility, and most of all, pedagogy.
vatkhrt 6y ago
Its interesting that in the "long history" of some of these raags, many have moved from folk into the classical realm. To name a few - Mand, Khamaj, Desh. There is also the diffusion of some classical ragas into wider collective conscience through film music, and other forms of "light" music.

JoeDaDude 6y ago

When I wanted to learn about Indian classical music, I was pointed to the youtube channel of Anuja Kamat [1]. Disclaimer: I haven't watched enough to present an informed opinion as of yet. https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCs6OTIFV53Z-EGT84lxTvqQ https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCs6OTIFV53Z-EGT84lxTvqQ

trianglem 6y ago
Anuja does a fantastic job of explaining a lot of Indian classical music in layman’s terms. Brilliant channel, highly recommended!
scoot 6y ago
Thanks! From what I've watched so far, she's wonderfully engaging and enthusiastic about the subject.

marcescence 6y ago

I think the term "court music" is more clear

puranjay 6y ago
A lot of classical music is also temple (or church) music.

trianglem 6y ago

Classical in Indian music is more a genre than music that was created in a certain time period. Not sure if that’s the same with European classical music.

sn41 6y ago

Classical in the sense that this is a tradition of sufficient vintage, backed by a theory of music. There are at least 2 distinct systems of Indian music which are called classical. 1. Carnatic - the south Indian classical music. Traditionally Purandara Dasa is supposed to be the originator, from around the 13th century. This came up in the Vijayanagar empire. But there are older composers like Vyasa Raya whose compositions are still popular.(1) 2. Hindustani - the north Indian classical music, origins attributed to Amir Khusro, around 12-13 century.(2) There are older musical systems, for example, Sopana system in Kerala. (3) Moreover, instruments like the Veena (the Indian lute) are much older, as can be attested from Gupta era paintings (6th century A.D.), so it is possible that a lot of the history is now lost. (4) The ragas are arranged in a combinatorial manner, roughly, out of 12 notes, how many harmonious combinations can be made? (5) Related: combinatorics was used in prosody, in addition to music: One of the earliest occurrenc of the Pascal's triangle is in Indian prosody. (6) (1) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carnatic_music https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carnatic_music (2) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hindustani_classical_music https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hindustani_classical_music (3) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sopana_Sangeetham https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sopana_Sangeetham (4) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veena https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veena (5) https://cs.uwaterloo.ca/journals/JIS/VOL5/Balasubramanian/bala6.html https://cs.uwaterloo.ca/journals/JIS/VOL5/Balasubramanian/ba... (6) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pascal%27s_triangle#History https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pascal%27s_triangle#History

cpgonzalez 6y ago
wow
bovermyer 6y ago
Thank you for that. I learned something.
wavefunction 6y ago
Thank you for this excellent post.
croh 6y ago
There is also a semi-classical genre evolved from musical dramas. Sadly it is not mainstream anymore. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sangeet_Natak https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sangeet_Natak https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kdlLqzs9LKk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kdlLqzs9LKk There is an interesting form of performance called Jugalbandi where different artists perform duet (mostly without rehearsal). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jugalbandi https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jugalbandi Another rare video - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lk60ObnbIOk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lk60ObnbIOk

abishekk92 6y ago

Indian classical music, especially carnatic has a tremendous amount of music theory. I highly recommend T.M. Krishna's "A Southern Music: The Karnatik Story"[0] or this strangeloop talk [1] [0] - https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/20320205-a-southern-music https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/20320205-a-southern-musi... [1] - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u9CGcusOz60 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u9CGcusOz60

Karishma1234 6y ago

There are two major classical music traditions in India. Hindustani (Indian which is influenced by both Hinduism and later Islamic contribution, Carnatic which is mostly Hindu). People familiar with Indian music can easily distinguish between classical music and non classical music but for a layman like me the test is : 1. Is the piece being based on some well known Raga (Raga - is a mood or a tune in very rough sense). 2. Is it being sung by a person with years of training in classical music which is learned from a Guru.