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I'm too European to understand why this makes any sense. I think the problem is not really that the insurance doesn't want to pay the bill, the problem is that
by noud 6y ago
I'm too European to understand why this makes any sense. I think the problem is not really that the insurance doesn't want to pay the bill, the problem is that $18,933.44 for stitches and anesthesia makes absolutely no sense at all. Therefore, the resolution is not to negotiate with your insurance and tell them exactly what happened so that you can split the bill. The resolution is to negotiate with the hospital about the costs of stitches and anesthesia. In Europe (Netherlands in my case) the insurance usually pays everything (part one of the solution), which forces the insurance to negotiate with the hospital about prices (part two of the solution). Keeping most simple interventions low in costs.
- me_me_me 6y agoI have read about this. The hospital charge as much as they can, because some patients are unable to pay. This way they make up the difference (or make more). The idea is that you go to the billing staff and threaten that you will go bankrupt and will not pay anything. Then negotiations begin. Rich pay cuz they don't care, suckers get conned, and poor gets their credit destroyed. Classic USA. It is another 'american' system akin to tipping only taken to extreme.
- artembugara 6y agoI'm not American but go bankrupt will affect your entire life in the US.
- ryanbrunner 6y agoI don't think they were saying to actually go bankrupt, just to threaten the bank with the possibility of getting nothing out of you.
- me_me_me 6y agoif you are poor and cannot afford anything then yes, you go bankrupt and good luck with getting a credit for an icecream. But otherwise you use bankruptcy as a bargain card. Because nither side wants to go there.
- rasz 6y ago>hospital charge as much as they can to profit, and profit they do. They deliver record returns on investment year over year.
- artembugara 6y agoIt's capitalism. No one makes you pay. You can do your stitches yourself. Or, try to find a cheaper hospital. I know it's more complicated than that but everything has its cost. $19k is the cost for the US stitches and anesthesia. Edit: I'm not a fan of this system but it works. Isn't the US the #1 medical care quality country?
- adwww 6y agoThat might be possible if healthcare companies were upfront about the cost of their services. But I bet you couldn't find an upfront cost for stitches from 3 hospitals in your area.
- the_only_law 6y agoNot only that, I tried to look up pricing prior to an emergency visit. I got a massive excel spreadsheet that was every single name for each codified medical procedure they had. On top of that it’s often not possible to anticipate what all treatment you’ll receive. I was expecting to just receive stitches real quick but ended up in surgery overnight.
- VBprogrammer 6y agoIf that is capitalism then capitalism can go get fucked in my opinion. Honestly, we're not talking about having a wart removed here. It's basic medical treatment for a child. That should be beyond reproach in any civilised country.
- arethuza 6y ago"Illness is neither an indulgence for which people have to pay, nor an offence for which they should be penalised, but a misfortune the cost of which should be shared by the community." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aneurin_Bevan https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aneurin_Bevan NB Of course, it is perfectly possible to disagree with this view, it just happens to be something I personally strongly agree with.
- artembugara 6y ago
- s_dev 6y ago>I'm too European to understand why this makes any sense. This really reads as "Is this some peasant joke I'm too rich to understand".
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]
- kyriee 6y agoNo it just means that it’s beyond comprehension. As a Canadian, I feel the same way. Everything about the American healthcare system feels like a nightmare to me. From the cost, to the fact that it’s usually tied to your employer (!!) and that even if you have good insurance, you have to make sure to get care from “in network” healthcare professionals. It seems to require a tremendous amount of energy for very little benefit for average citizens.
- s_dev 6y agoYou can understand or not understand something -- it has 0 to do with your nationality. "As a Canadian" is just nonsense. It doesn't bring much to the table. "As a Canadian doctor" is authority. You often find this with appeals from "As a mother" -- it's just a fallacy.
- ryanbrunner 6y agoI don't think this is a very charitable reading. "As a European", "As a Canadian", etc. isn't a statement of authority or a value judgement that makes someone better, it's just stating that they come from a cultural context where this isn't the norm, so it seems bizarre. Including the cultural context you're viewing things from can be useful so that people can understand where you're coming from.
- stefan_ 6y agoMy personal favorite was the $2000 copay, like healthcare is the same as car insurance where you might forgo the repair of a dent.
- 6y ago
- lr4444lr 6y agoThat's usually what happens. The uninsured tend to be poorer, less stably employed, and the hospitals look to extract marginal revenue from these people. Paying for all of the bill collectors, legal review, etc. to get the original bill amount just isn't worth it in most cases, or so I hear from insiders. I suspect in this case because there is insurance that the family will try and succeed somewhat to get partial responsibility from the insurance company. This was emergency medicine for a dependent child - not a commonly excluded category.
- AshamedCaptain 6y agoThe last time my daughter required stitches, the hospital did it for free. They didn't even ask for my name. I didn't even had to fill any paperwork (which would have been a chore since I didn't have the EU health card with me and I speak very little of the local language). Happened at French alps during last year ski season.
- Jedd 6y agoThis information would be significantly enhanced with when that last time was, and what country you were in at the time.
- galoisgirl 6y agoWhy, do you want to travel to a French ski resort to get some stitches done for free?
- Jedd 6y agoNo, thank you, but it's a very sweet offer. As an Australian I already qualify for free healthcare, and I don't require any medical attention at the moment. Referring back to the (G)GP - when trying to put geo-political context around such comments, it's useful to mention the geo-political context of your comment.
- galoisgirl 6y ago> it's useful to mention the geo-political context of your comment. Really? How so?
- EForEndeavour 6y agoI'd tell you, but the Stasi would arrest me.
- bromuro 6y agoSame happened in Italy to a friend from latin-america, traveling as tourist. She left the hospital with a smile, impressed how easy and friendly people were. Nothing serious so nothing to pay. She was very worried and they even managed to make her smile. This was in Verona, Italy some years ago, in the ER of Borgo Roma. It was late night and just a short queue to wait. It has been a great human experience and we will be always grateful to the doctors there.
- StreamBright 6y ago> the problem is that $18,933.44 for stitches and anesthesia makes absolutely no sense at all. It does make sense if you have a law that limits the profit rate for a particular enterprise so it has no other way of increasing the profit than pushing up the price to a level where 20% of that price is the desired outcome. Netherlands has a really nice system that would probably work for the US as well if there were any political interest to fix the healthcare system. Right now both parties are heavily in the pockets of insurance companies so the only things you can see is failed half-assed, broken solutions like Obamacare that cost billions even to operate a website. https://www.aeaweb.org/research/regulating-health-insurers-aca-medical-loss-ratio https://www.aeaweb.org/research/regulating-health-insurers-a... https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2014-09-24/obamacare-website-costs-exceed-2-billion-study-finds https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2014-09-24/obamacare...
- danielbarla 6y agoI don't think 20% of that number seems normal, either. It's still ~$4K, for what sounds like stitches and local anesthesia (unsure, as the link does not seem to open the article for me, only gives a list of other NPR articles). That's over one month of pre-tax salary (edit: for the median US worker), which does not equate with the length, complexity or risk of the treatment. So, what I am saying is that I fail to see what attempts at limiting the price has to do with the price being too high in the first place.
- rasz 6y ago>The ACA requires health insurers in the individual and small group market to spend 80 percent of their premiums (after subtracting taxes and regulatory fees) on medical costs. Means their profits are capped at 20%. Only way to grow profits is to inflate costs by colluding with private health providers.
- danielbarla 6y agoAh, I see. What the parent poster and myself seem to be getting at is that in terms of international pricing, perhaps 1000$ of service happened here (and I'm being generous - in many places, that would be considered outrageously high). A 20% profit margin would put it at 1200$. How it got to 19K is mind boggling.
- johnchristopher 6y agoThere are some serious lobbying at the EC level to implement private health insurance and replace state/mutual health insurance. Right now the focus is on the people and freight rail transport system but it's happening.
- Symbiote 6y agoI'm from the UK, where it's difficult to find price lists, since the patient never sees a bill. This paper [1] covers "the NHS, child and family costs of falls, poisonings and scalds". > In total, 344 parents completed resource use questionnaires, with > 95% of children recovering within 2 weeks of injury and almost 99% recovering within 1 month. Mean NHS costs ranged from £2588 to £2989 across injury mechanisms for children admitted for ≥ 2 days, from £719 to £1011 for those admitted for 0–1 days and from £97 to £178 for those attending an ED but not admitted. All this boy's treatments were on the same day, and he only fell off his bike -- these British figures include accidents like scalding -- so in the UK, he would have been at the lower end, i.e. under £1000. [1] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK447063/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK447063/