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>Veteran engineers and high-level executives are leaving top U.S. chip design toolmakers for Chinese rivals as Beijing looks to break America's near monopoly on

>Veteran engineers and high-level executives are leaving top U.S. chip design toolmakers for Chinese rivals as Beijing looks to break America's near monopoly on this key segment of the semiconductor industry. Are they of Chinese descent? It sounds dubious that a lot of engineers leave to work in Chinese startups.

anaganisk 6y ago
Are people working in American startups from american descent? Im sure there are thousands of Indian, Pakistani or other country people employed right now, so do you think they would be loyal to US startups?
- nullifidian 6y ago
  I would assume more loyal than to Chinese startups. As far as I understand China is not a very immigrant friendly country. "Successful applicants are required to renounce any foreign nationalities they have.[46] Naturalization is exceptionally rare in mainland China; there were only 1,448 naturalized persons reported in the 2010 census[47] out of the country's total population of 1.34 billion.[48] "
  - varispeed 6y ago
    You don't need Chinese citizenship to work in China also likely China will offer special terms to engineers willing to relocate.
    - formerly_proven 6y ago
      They do.
    - PakG1 6y ago
      https://www.scmp.com/tech/policy/article/3023635/shenzhen-needs-attract-overseas-talent-fuel-greater-bay-areas-hi-tech https://www.scmp.com/tech/policy/article/3023635/shenzhen-ne... That programme offers one-off subsidies, ranging from 800,000 yuan (US$113,488) to 1.5 million yuan, in addition to welfare packages covering family members, rental allowances and medical care. More than 96 per cent of the talents recruited under the Peacock Plan holds a doctorate, and 94 per cent are Chinese returnees. Shenzhen has also pledged to extend tax breaks to top overseas and local talent, which could be as low as 15 per cent of a person’s annual income compared with as high as 45 per cent previously, under China’s progressive taxation system. To date, the city has been helping develop at least 10 laboratories in collaboration with Nobel laureates involved in natural sciences. Nine of these have been completed as of June this year. Shenzhen’s hi-tech companies are also sparing no efforts in wooing talent with high pay. Last month, Huawei announced plans to lure gifted new recruits with “top-notch” salaries.
      - varispeed 6y ago
        Some western countries are approaching thresholds like 45% for specialist income. For example in the UK after recent changes to IR35, an engineer will likely have to pay about 54% of tax assuming he or she gets paid market rates and the client will declare them to be deemed employees to be safe. If China could match western rates, but added tax exemptions on top, plus located the sites somewhere warm with good amenities, they could attract good people without even trying much.
        Bayart 6y ago
        The problem is being paid in a currency that's worthless outside of China and can't be converted back to anything serious. It's fine for Chinese expatriates who went abroad for better money, but I can't see the rest being too interested.
        MacsHeadroom 6y ago
        That's ridiculous. CNY is as easily converted as USD, if not more easily.
        Bayart 6y ago
        Duh, of course CNY is easily traded to other currencies on the Forex markets, China's starving for reserves. But they're actively preventing money from getting _out_ of China, in particular said reserves. If you're making money in China, it's going to stay in China until you jump through a lot of hoops.
        PakG1 6y ago
        I work in China. I wire money out of China on a regular basis to my home account in Canada. Have to give copies of tax forms and a copy of my contract to the bank, but that's about it. Other than that, it's the same as wiring money from Canada to any other country. There is a limit each year, but I've never been able to hit it. And a bunch of my foreign colleagues have half of their salary automatically deposited in USD accounts in their home country. Not me, but the point is that there are options.
  - legolas2412 6y ago
    And usa isn't particularly immigrant friendly to employment based immigration, specially for those from India. Out of 500k green cards every year, only 15k are for eb1,2,3 employment based immigration, with country of birth based limitations on top!
    - kamaal 6y ago
      As an Indian, I can say Indians will go anywhere. Gulf has way more harsher visa conditions, with no citizenship path and yet Indians flock to the Gulf. It is crazy to think that people won't sell their services for money, because of loyalty or whatever. For the common man, their own career is what they care about. And for a good reason, especially in a country where every wants to hoard money at any cost- No one's going to miss out on an opportunity of this kind.
  - mytailorisrich 6y ago
    > As far as I understand China is not a very immigrant friendly country. China is very flexible. There may be difficulties in getting citizenship (which is another issue, really), but for work visas to foreign talents, which are sponsored by local companies, this is simply a matter of applying in order to get one.
    - kube-system 6y ago
      Being “immigrant friendly” consists of more than issuing a visa.
      - mytailorisrich 6y ago
        They are very friendly to foreign talents. A lot of misconceptions and FUD here. And I write that as someone who spent 3 years living in China and working for a JV. If you want to emigrate there permanently this may be different but realistically this is not the topic of this discussion, which is more about highly educated people finding opportunities in China.
varispeed 6y ago
If engineers are underpaid then why would anyone wonder they go to someone offering better terms? You won't feed your family and fulfil your dreams with patriotism.
- adriancr 6y ago
  Depends if you need to move to China or not, working in the US for China is likely still going to be restricted.
Hokusai 6y ago
> Are they of Chinese descent? Extremely weird question. We live in a competitive global market, people can and will move countries for better opportunities. USA used to just receive talent as it was way richer that any other country. That times are over now. I understand that it will take some time for Americans and many people in other for countries to accept this new reality, thou.
- josefresco 6y ago
  Instead of dismissing and criticizing the question, reply with data, references or even anecdotal experience.
- StartupTree 6y ago
  Humanity does do not live in your idealised competitive global market. There is a very limited subset of US engineers who would relocate to China.
  - motoboi 6y ago
    And you are saying that based on which data?
    - kube-system 6y ago
      Expatriates represent less than 1% of people, and market analysts categorize movement between countries into “inbound countries” and “outbound countries”. https://www.finaccord.com/Home/About-Us/Press-Releases/Global-Expatriates-Size,-Segmentation-and-Forecas https://www.finaccord.com/Home/About-Us/Press-Releases/Globa...
  - lnsru 6y ago
    I don’t know about USA, but many many Germans went there to work in rising automotive sector. The growth opportunities are insane while building future without internal combustion engines.
    - 6y ago
karmasimida 6y ago
Well, just to lay out the facts. The soon to be past administration makes the rhetoric so hostile that immigration to US becomes substantially harder and less attractive. It is hard to not feel that aliens, especially those who work in tech, are unwanted and targeted according to the administration's agenda.
tjpnz 6y ago
I would be interested in hearing more about this. Living in Japan or South Korea can be a very rough transition for some (I've witnessed my fair share of colleagues exiting Japan after only a few months). Mainland China would present many of the same challenges with the addition of living under an autocratic regime.
- pjc50 6y ago
  Lots of people on HN say, whenever the topic comes up, that they don't care about politics and don't want to hear about it. In China, you can have that!
- spacemanmatt 6y ago
  I would be interested in living in a version of the U.S. where citizens recognize autocracy by the behavior, instead of depending on their television to inform them.
  - the-dude 6y ago
    What are you hinting at? The Bush administrations?
    - spacemanmatt 6y ago
      I think you're onto something, there, with that.
- mytailorisrich 6y ago
  Having lived in China and visited Japan on a number of occasion, my feeling is that it would be more difficult to live in Japan than in China as a Westerner. I think that many people overestimate the impact of living under China's "autocratic regime" has on daily life. Especially if you're a Westerner there is no difference. I have always felt that Japanese culture and society were more difficult to adapt to. China is much less rigid. Obviously it's still a big cultural and linguistic change.
  - 6y ago
baybal2 6y ago
> Are they of Chinese descent? It sounds dubious that a lot of engineers leave to work in Chinese startups. Out of EDA companies that are in US, only Synopsys, and MG comes to mind. MG is now Siemens, and they are now full tiers behind Synopsys, and Cadence, after their sale. So no wonder of the exodus. I heard a saying "EDA industry is much like CAD software, but worse." People working on top tier EDAs need to be heads above their peers academically, know both tons of rarely going together disciplines like computer science, and process engineering, but they are also very poorly remunerated for their outstanding level of knowledge because the industry is so tiny. And yes, I never saw a shortage of Western engineers working in China, with them often calling themselves "labour market refugees." It feels the West is set on to effectively exterminating whatever serious industries it has left, with loss of semiconductor manufacturing being the most glaring, and extreme example. Some chips these days simply don't have datasheets in English.
- pjc50 6y ago
  Having worked in the EDA industry, I can quite believe it, it's stagnant and not capable of paying SV money for much rarer skills. But .. > The West is set on to effectively exterminating whatever serious industries they have left .. this is hardly deliberate. "The West" is not a single actor with a single intent.
- MacsHeadroom 6y ago
  More recently, half the time I can't even find a datasheet in Chinese. Is there a Chinese website/repository similar to wikichip?
- suifbwish 6y ago
  When the last civilian industry of a nation fails, it will suddenly become evident why so much money has been spent on maintaining a powerful military. If you can’t make something yourself you make an excuse to invade someone who can make it.

anaganisk 6y ago

Are people working in American startups from american descent? Im sure there are thousands of Indian, Pakistani or other country people employed right now, so do you think they would be loyal to US startups?

nullifidian 6y ago
I would assume more loyal than to Chinese startups. As far as I understand China is not a very immigrant friendly country. "Successful applicants are required to renounce any foreign nationalities they have.[46] Naturalization is exceptionally rare in mainland China; there were only 1,448 naturalized persons reported in the 2010 census[47] out of the country's total population of 1.34 billion.[48] "
- varispeed 6y ago
  You don't need Chinese citizenship to work in China also likely China will offer special terms to engineers willing to relocate.
  - formerly_proven 6y ago
    They do.
  - PakG1 6y ago
    https://www.scmp.com/tech/policy/article/3023635/shenzhen-needs-attract-overseas-talent-fuel-greater-bay-areas-hi-tech https://www.scmp.com/tech/policy/article/3023635/shenzhen-ne... That programme offers one-off subsidies, ranging from 800,000 yuan (US$113,488) to 1.5 million yuan, in addition to welfare packages covering family members, rental allowances and medical care. More than 96 per cent of the talents recruited under the Peacock Plan holds a doctorate, and 94 per cent are Chinese returnees. Shenzhen has also pledged to extend tax breaks to top overseas and local talent, which could be as low as 15 per cent of a person’s annual income compared with as high as 45 per cent previously, under China’s progressive taxation system. To date, the city has been helping develop at least 10 laboratories in collaboration with Nobel laureates involved in natural sciences. Nine of these have been completed as of June this year. Shenzhen’s hi-tech companies are also sparing no efforts in wooing talent with high pay. Last month, Huawei announced plans to lure gifted new recruits with “top-notch” salaries.
    - varispeed 6y ago
      Some western countries are approaching thresholds like 45% for specialist income. For example in the UK after recent changes to IR35, an engineer will likely have to pay about 54% of tax assuming he or she gets paid market rates and the client will declare them to be deemed employees to be safe. If China could match western rates, but added tax exemptions on top, plus located the sites somewhere warm with good amenities, they could attract good people without even trying much.
      - Bayart 6y ago
        The problem is being paid in a currency that's worthless outside of China and can't be converted back to anything serious. It's fine for Chinese expatriates who went abroad for better money, but I can't see the rest being too interested.
        MacsHeadroom 6y ago
        That's ridiculous. CNY is as easily converted as USD, if not more easily.
        Bayart 6y ago
        Duh, of course CNY is easily traded to other currencies on the Forex markets, China's starving for reserves. But they're actively preventing money from getting _out_ of China, in particular said reserves. If you're making money in China, it's going to stay in China until you jump through a lot of hoops.
        PakG1 6y ago
        I work in China. I wire money out of China on a regular basis to my home account in Canada. Have to give copies of tax forms and a copy of my contract to the bank, but that's about it. Other than that, it's the same as wiring money from Canada to any other country. There is a limit each year, but I've never been able to hit it. And a bunch of my foreign colleagues have half of their salary automatically deposited in USD accounts in their home country. Not me, but the point is that there are options.
- legolas2412 6y ago
  And usa isn't particularly immigrant friendly to employment based immigration, specially for those from India. Out of 500k green cards every year, only 15k are for eb1,2,3 employment based immigration, with country of birth based limitations on top!
  - kamaal 6y ago
    As an Indian, I can say Indians will go anywhere. Gulf has way more harsher visa conditions, with no citizenship path and yet Indians flock to the Gulf. It is crazy to think that people won't sell their services for money, because of loyalty or whatever. For the common man, their own career is what they care about. And for a good reason, especially in a country where every wants to hoard money at any cost- No one's going to miss out on an opportunity of this kind.
- mytailorisrich 6y ago
  > As far as I understand China is not a very immigrant friendly country. China is very flexible. There may be difficulties in getting citizenship (which is another issue, really), but for work visas to foreign talents, which are sponsored by local companies, this is simply a matter of applying in order to get one.
  - kube-system 6y ago
    Being “immigrant friendly” consists of more than issuing a visa.
    - mytailorisrich 6y ago
      They are very friendly to foreign talents. A lot of misconceptions and FUD here. And I write that as someone who spent 3 years living in China and working for a JV. If you want to emigrate there permanently this may be different but realistically this is not the topic of this discussion, which is more about highly educated people finding opportunities in China.

varispeed 6y ago

If engineers are underpaid then why would anyone wonder they go to someone offering better terms? You won't feed your family and fulfil your dreams with patriotism.

adriancr 6y ago
Depends if you need to move to China or not, working in the US for China is likely still going to be restricted.

Hokusai 6y ago

> Are they of Chinese descent? Extremely weird question. We live in a competitive global market, people can and will move countries for better opportunities. USA used to just receive talent as it was way richer that any other country. That times are over now. I understand that it will take some time for Americans and many people in other for countries to accept this new reality, thou.

josefresco 6y ago
Instead of dismissing and criticizing the question, reply with data, references or even anecdotal experience.
StartupTree 6y ago
Humanity does do not live in your idealised competitive global market. There is a very limited subset of US engineers who would relocate to China.
- motoboi 6y ago
  And you are saying that based on which data?
  - kube-system 6y ago
    Expatriates represent less than 1% of people, and market analysts categorize movement between countries into “inbound countries” and “outbound countries”. https://www.finaccord.com/Home/About-Us/Press-Releases/Global-Expatriates-Size,-Segmentation-and-Forecas https://www.finaccord.com/Home/About-Us/Press-Releases/Globa...
- lnsru 6y ago
  I don’t know about USA, but many many Germans went there to work in rising automotive sector. The growth opportunities are insane while building future without internal combustion engines.
  - 6y ago

karmasimida 6y ago

Well, just to lay out the facts. The soon to be past administration makes the rhetoric so hostile that immigration to US becomes substantially harder and less attractive. It is hard to not feel that aliens, especially those who work in tech, are unwanted and targeted according to the administration's agenda.

tjpnz 6y ago

I would be interested in hearing more about this. Living in Japan or South Korea can be a very rough transition for some (I've witnessed my fair share of colleagues exiting Japan after only a few months). Mainland China would present many of the same challenges with the addition of living under an autocratic regime.

pjc50 6y ago
Lots of people on HN say, whenever the topic comes up, that they don't care about politics and don't want to hear about it. In China, you can have that!
spacemanmatt 6y ago
I would be interested in living in a version of the U.S. where citizens recognize autocracy by the behavior, instead of depending on their television to inform them.
- the-dude 6y ago
  What are you hinting at? The Bush administrations?
  - spacemanmatt 6y ago
    I think you're onto something, there, with that.
mytailorisrich 6y ago
Having lived in China and visited Japan on a number of occasion, my feeling is that it would be more difficult to live in Japan than in China as a Westerner. I think that many people overestimate the impact of living under China's "autocratic regime" has on daily life. Especially if you're a Westerner there is no difference. I have always felt that Japanese culture and society were more difficult to adapt to. China is much less rigid. Obviously it's still a big cultural and linguistic change.
- 6y ago

baybal2 6y ago

> Are they of Chinese descent? It sounds dubious that a lot of engineers leave to work in Chinese startups. Out of EDA companies that are in US, only Synopsys, and MG comes to mind. MG is now Siemens, and they are now full tiers behind Synopsys, and Cadence, after their sale. So no wonder of the exodus. I heard a saying "EDA industry is much like CAD software, but worse." People working on top tier EDAs need to be heads above their peers academically, know both tons of rarely going together disciplines like computer science, and process engineering, but they are also very poorly remunerated for their outstanding level of knowledge because the industry is so tiny. And yes, I never saw a shortage of Western engineers working in China, with them often calling themselves "labour market refugees." It feels the West is set on to effectively exterminating whatever serious industries it has left, with loss of semiconductor manufacturing being the most glaring, and extreme example. Some chips these days simply don't have datasheets in English.

pjc50 6y ago
Having worked in the EDA industry, I can quite believe it, it's stagnant and not capable of paying SV money for much rarer skills. But .. > The West is set on to effectively exterminating whatever serious industries they have left .. this is hardly deliberate. "The West" is not a single actor with a single intent.
MacsHeadroom 6y ago
More recently, half the time I can't even find a datasheet in Chinese. Is there a Chinese website/repository similar to wikichip?
suifbwish 6y ago
When the last civilian industry of a nation fails, it will suddenly become evident why so much money has been spent on maintaining a powerful military. If you can’t make something yourself you make an excuse to invade someone who can make it.