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> Apple's walled garden Apparently over the years the definition of "Walled Garden" has drifted a lot. The iPhone has a "Walled Garden", unless you jailbreak,

> Apple's walled garden Apparently over the years the definition of "Walled Garden" has drifted a lot. The iPhone has a "Walled Garden", unless you jailbreak, it's very difficult to run anything outside the App Store. My Mac? Almost nothing I run is from the App Store. Nothing needs to be from the App Store. Most of what I run doesn't even go through Gatekeeper and it certainly never touches software I build or compile myself. If a "Walled Garden" can be disabled by bypassed by a single entry in your hosts file, by running from the command line, or any other number of ways, it's a damned short wall around that garden. Lots of valid criticisms of MacOS, but it's nowhere in the ballpark of a walled garden.

mathnmusic 6y ago
The parent was complaining about being forced to use OS X. So, the "walled garden" is intended for the underlying hardware.
- ogre_codes 6y ago
  > So, the "walled garden" is intended for the underlying hardware. I don't think that is what he was saying at all. Regardless. There is nothing preventing Linux (or Windows) from booting on Mac M1 hardware. People almost certainly will have Linux running on Mac hardware before too long. It's just a slog getting it working well. Not a walled garden in any traditional sense, just difficult to implement.
  - erk__ 6y ago
    I think they have been clear about boot camp not being supported, at least at present time. But they have also said that it is possible to run Windows, but that it will be up to Microsoft.
  - trollied 6y ago
    Linus has openly said he wants Linux running on one: https://hardware.slashdot.org/story/20/11/24/2225209/linus-torvalds-would-like-to-use-an-m1-mac-for-linux-but https://hardware.slashdot.org/story/20/11/24/2225209/linus-t...
    - ogre_codes 6y ago
      > Linus has openly said he wants Linux running on one Linus has been lusting after Apple hardware for a long time. He's also been exceedingly frustrated by the lack of drivers for most of that time. 8 years ago in an interview with Tech Crunch, he waxes poetic about the MacBook Air: > "That said, I’m have to admit being a bit baffled by how nobody else seems to have done what Apple did with the Macbook Air – even several years after the first release, the other notebook vendors continue to push those ugly and clunky things. Yes, there are vendors that have tried to emulate it, but usually pretty badly. I don’t think I’m unusual in preferring my laptop to be thin and light." https://techcrunch.com/2012/04/19/an-interview-with-millenium-technology-prize-finalist-linus-torvalds/ https://techcrunch.com/2012/04/19/an-interview-with-milleniu... I don't see his criticism of Apple drivers in this article, but he was pretty frustrated even back then.
  - izacus 6y ago
    > There is nothing preventing Linux (or Windows) from booting on Mac M1 hardware. Except the iOS-like secure boot verification and complete lack of any kind of documentation or drivers for the hardware. Details!
    - xenadu02 6y ago
      Apple Silicon supports local signing of whatever boot blob you like from in the recovery environment (in Permissive Security mode). This ensures the system boots the bits you yourself approved without applying any other requirements. The other policies available are a) verify at install time the boot kernel is signed by Apple and is the most currently available version (default) or b) to verify at install time the boot kernel is signed by Apple without doing an online check (allows downgrades). In all cases it's the same underlying mechanism that records what the system should be allowed to boot (according to whatever policy is in effect) and verifies at boot time it hasn't been tampered with. Big Sur takes that further and cryptographically verifies the entire system volume hasn't been tampered with (even offline). You are correct that Apple does not provide drivers for other operating systems for M1 Macs.
    - mlindner 6y ago
      People will reverse engineer them, given time. And the secure boot verification can be shut off.
    - ogre_codes 6y ago
      > Except the iOS-like secure boot verification... Which Apple has documented how to work around. > ... or drivers for the hardware. Which is why I said it was going to be difficult to implement. > ... Details! Were apparently ignored.
matsemann 6y ago
> My Mac? Almost nothing I run is from the App Store. For now.
- cwhiz 6y ago
  People have been making these comments for years. Every new macOS release. Except here we are and things are the same. I run whatever I want. Here’s to having this same silly “argument” in 2021.
  - matwood 6y ago
    Agreed. At this point the argument is nearing joke/meme level.
    - selykg 6y ago
      It's popular to hate on Apple right now. Seems even Hacker News isn't immune to this trend.
      - freehunter 6y ago
        HN has the ability to hate on literally everything. This forum is by far the most negative social platform I’m a member of. There’s rarely a positive word spoken about any article, and if the article isn’t worth negative comments we’ll find something else to hate, like the presentation of the website or the fonts or colors used.
        jason0597 6y ago
        It's easy to be against something. It's hard to be for something.
        aksss 6y ago
        I like to think of HN as contrarian, not negative. Techies are cynical by nature because the promise and reality of technology are perpetually so far apart. And if your actual job in life is to anticipate where the problems are going to surface in technology, well... the longer you live with that, you develop commensurate expectations and compensatory mental models.
intricatedetail 6y ago
Customer shouldn't be required to mess up with the system files in order to gain full access to the product they paid for. Such restrictions should be illegal if they are not "opt in". Customers should have a right to install alternative app stores without the need of "hacking". We desperately need regulation to stop greedy, tax shy and privacy violating giants from exploiting the consumers.
- ogre_codes 6y ago
  > Customer shouldn't be required to mess up with the system files in order to gain full access to the product they paid for. This comment is quite removed from the reality of using a Mac. I've never even considered bypassing Gatekeeper because it's never been in my way. But bypassing these Gatekeeper checks is comparable in difficulty to adding a second repo to Debian to install apps outside Debian's repo. Are you suggesting Debian is guilty of this too?
nothis 6y ago
... yet. They’re building the hardware infrastructure to change that. I mean, I get it, it’s fast. That’s good. But it’s so obvious people worry about the trend, not the exact current state.

mathnmusic 6y ago

The parent was complaining about being forced to use OS X. So, the "walled garden" is intended for the underlying hardware.

ogre_codes 6y ago
> So, the "walled garden" is intended for the underlying hardware. I don't think that is what he was saying at all. Regardless. There is nothing preventing Linux (or Windows) from booting on Mac M1 hardware. People almost certainly will have Linux running on Mac hardware before too long. It's just a slog getting it working well. Not a walled garden in any traditional sense, just difficult to implement.
- erk__ 6y ago
  I think they have been clear about boot camp not being supported, at least at present time. But they have also said that it is possible to run Windows, but that it will be up to Microsoft.
- trollied 6y ago
  Linus has openly said he wants Linux running on one: https://hardware.slashdot.org/story/20/11/24/2225209/linus-torvalds-would-like-to-use-an-m1-mac-for-linux-but https://hardware.slashdot.org/story/20/11/24/2225209/linus-t...
  - ogre_codes 6y ago
    > Linus has openly said he wants Linux running on one Linus has been lusting after Apple hardware for a long time. He's also been exceedingly frustrated by the lack of drivers for most of that time. 8 years ago in an interview with Tech Crunch, he waxes poetic about the MacBook Air: > "That said, I’m have to admit being a bit baffled by how nobody else seems to have done what Apple did with the Macbook Air – even several years after the first release, the other notebook vendors continue to push those ugly and clunky things. Yes, there are vendors that have tried to emulate it, but usually pretty badly. I don’t think I’m unusual in preferring my laptop to be thin and light." https://techcrunch.com/2012/04/19/an-interview-with-millenium-technology-prize-finalist-linus-torvalds/ https://techcrunch.com/2012/04/19/an-interview-with-milleniu... I don't see his criticism of Apple drivers in this article, but he was pretty frustrated even back then.
- izacus 6y ago
  > There is nothing preventing Linux (or Windows) from booting on Mac M1 hardware. Except the iOS-like secure boot verification and complete lack of any kind of documentation or drivers for the hardware. Details!
  - xenadu02 6y ago
    Apple Silicon supports local signing of whatever boot blob you like from in the recovery environment (in Permissive Security mode). This ensures the system boots the bits you yourself approved without applying any other requirements. The other policies available are a) verify at install time the boot kernel is signed by Apple and is the most currently available version (default) or b) to verify at install time the boot kernel is signed by Apple without doing an online check (allows downgrades). In all cases it's the same underlying mechanism that records what the system should be allowed to boot (according to whatever policy is in effect) and verifies at boot time it hasn't been tampered with. Big Sur takes that further and cryptographically verifies the entire system volume hasn't been tampered with (even offline). You are correct that Apple does not provide drivers for other operating systems for M1 Macs.
  - mlindner 6y ago
    People will reverse engineer them, given time. And the secure boot verification can be shut off.
  - ogre_codes 6y ago
    > Except the iOS-like secure boot verification... Which Apple has documented how to work around. > ... or drivers for the hardware. Which is why I said it was going to be difficult to implement. > ... Details! Were apparently ignored.

matsemann 6y ago

> My Mac? Almost nothing I run is from the App Store. For now.

cwhiz 6y ago
People have been making these comments for years. Every new macOS release. Except here we are and things are the same. I run whatever I want. Here’s to having this same silly “argument” in 2021.
- matwood 6y ago
  Agreed. At this point the argument is nearing joke/meme level.
  - selykg 6y ago
    It's popular to hate on Apple right now. Seems even Hacker News isn't immune to this trend.
    - freehunter 6y ago
      HN has the ability to hate on literally everything. This forum is by far the most negative social platform I’m a member of. There’s rarely a positive word spoken about any article, and if the article isn’t worth negative comments we’ll find something else to hate, like the presentation of the website or the fonts or colors used.
      - jason0597 6y ago
        It's easy to be against something. It's hard to be for something.
      - aksss 6y ago
        I like to think of HN as contrarian, not negative. Techies are cynical by nature because the promise and reality of technology are perpetually so far apart. And if your actual job in life is to anticipate where the problems are going to surface in technology, well... the longer you live with that, you develop commensurate expectations and compensatory mental models.

intricatedetail 6y ago

Customer shouldn't be required to mess up with the system files in order to gain full access to the product they paid for. Such restrictions should be illegal if they are not "opt in". Customers should have a right to install alternative app stores without the need of "hacking". We desperately need regulation to stop greedy, tax shy and privacy violating giants from exploiting the consumers.

ogre_codes 6y ago
> Customer shouldn't be required to mess up with the system files in order to gain full access to the product they paid for. This comment is quite removed from the reality of using a Mac. I've never even considered bypassing Gatekeeper because it's never been in my way. But bypassing these Gatekeeper checks is comparable in difficulty to adding a second repo to Debian to install apps outside Debian's repo. Are you suggesting Debian is guilty of this too?

nothis 6y ago

... yet. They’re building the hardware infrastructure to change that. I mean, I get it, it’s fast. That’s good. But it’s so obvious people worry about the trend, not the exact current state.