7 ms·

Honestly, this sounds like it's coming from someone that lives in a country where bribes aren't commonplace. It's good that you and I both live in countries li

Honestly, this sounds like it's coming from someone that lives in a country where bribes aren't commonplace. It's good that you and I both live in countries like that; but, in some countries, you report your bribes on taxes, they're so common. From the other comments in this thread, it's suggesting that the CCW permit process in California is very bad and broken and these bribes have been an illegal method of actually getting CCW permits.

TaylorAlexander 6y ago
I remember reading in the calguns forums a few years back that sheriffs had de-facto outlawed concealed carry in CA with this extortionate program. By the way Apples head of security isn’t the only one. Nanci Pelosi has had a CCW for a long time while simultaneously fighting to suppress gun ownership in her own city and state.
- nradov 6y ago
  That's nothing new. Senator Dianne Feinstein got a permit to carry a concealed handgun in San Francisco. There has always been one set of rules for the powerful and another set for the rest of us.
  - sokoloff 6y ago
    One rule for me, another for thee...
    - simonh 6y ago
      Er, no. Different laws at different times. If CC were made illegal, it would be illegal for her too. Or is she actually advocating for different laws for different people?
      - tesmar2 6y ago
        Yes but you shouldn’t need a permit to get one, in the spirit of the 2nd amendment. Having permits just makes 2 classes of people, those with connections to the sheriff and regular Joes.
      - TaylorAlexander 6y ago
        What do you do when you want it to be legal for some people and illegal for other people? Make an opaque approval process and don’t approve very many people. My understanding based on some details I heard a few years ago (so I am no expert) is that this is exactly what happened.
      - treeman79 6y ago
        She and her class are above the laws.
  - scurvy 6y ago
    She had one because the anarcho hippie terrorist groups of SF targeted her and shot up her home several times. When the group was arrested/disbanded, she let her permit lapse. While I agree it sucks that some rich and powerful people seem to live by a different set of rules, it's not like she had a permit just for kicks.
    - TaylorAlexander 6y ago
      But that’s the whole point of a CCW permit. If you’re at risk you should be allowed to have one, and yet she works to make that impossible for all but the powerful and connected. It’s fine that she has one but it’s not fine that she doesn’t let regular Californians go through the same application process without money or connections.
      - scurvy 6y ago
        My point was to show that she had a legitimate need, then let the permit lapse when she no longer had a need. She didn't have one for an abuse of power. I wasn't debating the merits of the CA shall issue policy. In other words, don't pick a fight where there isn't one.
        tw158f23915e2a 6y ago
        > My point was to show that she had a legitimate need No one was arguing otherwise. The comments you were replying to were clearly about the hypocrisy of anti-gun politicians. > In other words, don't pick a fight where there isn't one. Indeed.
        unishark 6y ago
        Don't senators get (armed) govt security protection anyway when they are threatened?
        scurvy 6y ago
        She was mayor of San Francisco at the time.
  - makomk 6y ago
    What gets me as a Brit is when wealthy Hollywood celebrities campaigning for gun control point to our country's gun laws as an example and then insist that of course their security guards should be allowed to carry guns. (Private sector armed security is basically illegal here.) Of course, what really really gets me is when they talk about our total ban on guns while insisting that their security guards don't count because they have handguns and not big scary rifles, because the total UK ban they're likely thinking of is on handgun ownership specifically.
- billylindeman 6y ago
  IDK why you're getting downvoted.. I looked into this when I moved to SF and was astonished that it was basically impossible to get a CCW. Coming from the Detroit area this was a MAJOR shock to me.
- Grakel 6y ago
  I'm surprised Pelosi thinks she even needs one. Rules for you and not for me.
Rapzid 6y ago
I wouldn't call it paying a bribe so much as paying a ransom. It does not surprise me at all that this is happening given how much authority the Sherrif's have over CCW and how few they give out. Show me the incentives and I will show you the outcome.
- treeman79 6y ago
  The ability to deny something is very powerful. Gives others great power over others.
acituan 6y ago
> but, in some countries, you report your bribes on taxes, they're so common. Can you give any examples of those countries? Countries with high amount of bribing tend to also be countries with large off-the-record economies, therefore I am skeptical of that proposition. FYI in the US, you can claim tax deductibility on bribes paid in foreign countries iff they are not legally classified as bribes in the respective local laws.
- smnrchrds 6y ago
  >> but, in some countries, you report your bribes on taxes > Can you give any examples of those countries? Germany used to be like this, but it they changed the law many years ago. I don't know if there are any such countries remaining. The article below is from 1995, when bribes were still tax-deductible. https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/1995-08-06/germany-where-bribery-is-tax-deductible-intl-edition https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/1995-08-06/germany-w...
  - neither_color 6y ago
    I know of examples from El Salvador, but couldn't find good info on their tax laws in Spanish. This report mentions that extortion rackets are so pervasive that larger companies hire full time negotiators to manage their bribes, and have it built into their business models. No matter how you codify it, or whether or not you really call them officially "tax deductible", they are in fact a real operating cost that an American business doesn't ever have to consider but a third world one does, and it drives up cost for the end consumer. Extortion is mainly demanded from businesses, but local residents may also have to pay “taxes” or renta to access their homes. No business sector is spared, and goods and professional services may be demanded instead of, or in addition to money. Large businesses and transport operators have dedicated employees to negotiate extortion fees, which are built into >their financial models. Implicit risk starts as soon as someone is targeted to pay, and it rises if they are unable to pay or the renta charged increases. Those who refuse to pay are killed. https://www.internal-displacement.org/sites/default/files/inline-files/201809-el-salvador-an-atomised-crisis-en.pdf https://www.internal-displacement.org/sites/default/files/in...
FireBeyond 6y ago
I used to work for one of the oil giants. They had codified standards for bribery, a la: "While we do not approve of bribery, we recognize that in some places we do business, they are an unfortunate necessity. To that end, we have standardized our practices to keep everyone involved as safe as possible".
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- JackFr 6y ago
  I hope there standard was to not do it, because it is a US crime for any US national, citizen or resident as employee, officer or agent of a US corporation to bribe or otherwise corrupt a foreign official. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_Corrupt_Practices_Act https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_Corrupt_Practices_Ac...
  - cstejerean 6y ago
    One common exception is the so called grease payments which you’ll need to get anything done in any reasonable time frame. > Regarding payments to foreign officials, the act draws a distinction between bribery and facilitation or "grease payments", which may be permissible under the FCPA, but may still violate local laws. The primary distinction is that grease payments or facilitation payments are made to an official to expedite his performance of the routine duties he is already bound to perform.
  - refurb 6y ago
    My understanding is there is an exception for bribes needed to get an otherwise typical process complete. In other words, you’re entitled to some permit, but without a bribe you’d never get it or not get it in a reasonable period of time. Such a payment is considered a grease payment (and not a bribe), which is lawful under FCPA.
  - jefftk 6y ago
    I think you're assuming your parent is an American? (Looks like they're Australian: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25194634 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25194634)
reader_mode 6y ago
I know a guy who works on oil tankers and he was doing a gig in Africa. As he told it, basically every port there has a deal where you have to smuggle oil or stuff for them and tricks to get through standard inspections etc., etc. So a new captain comes on board and first port they get in he refuses to do this - they refuse to let them in the port - they were out at sea without resupply 20 days and running out of food... the company had to fly in a different captain to relieve this guy and he told me by day 2 weeks in they were already joking around how the captain could have an accident ...
treeman79 6y ago
A CEO from Japan came over to America to give a speech at his new factory. His English wasn’t great, so he spoke, and the translator spoke to everyone. Well at one point he went on about thanking local government officials, and that he would be sure to give them gifts for approving the project. The translator wisely left that part out. Confused, the CEO later asked why, then was shocked to learn that bribery is a bad thing in America. Google Fu is weak, so haven’t been able to find the original source. (May have been a Japanese language book)
- draugadrotten 6y ago
  > bribery is a bad thing in America Well. At least openly talking about it. Pretending it doesn't work in Americaa is ostrich syndrome. Just the first google result to prove my point. https://www.usnews.com/news/elections/articles/2020-10-22/trump-biden-trade-accusations-of-corruption https://www.usnews.com/news/elections/articles/2020-10-22/tr...
- NikolaeVarius 6y ago
  That doesn't scream "real" to me. Bribery is illegal in Japan. Thats why there is informal "gift giving"

TaylorAlexander 6y ago

I remember reading in the calguns forums a few years back that sheriffs had de-facto outlawed concealed carry in CA with this extortionate program. By the way Apples head of security isn’t the only one. Nanci Pelosi has had a CCW for a long time while simultaneously fighting to suppress gun ownership in her own city and state.

nradov 6y ago
That's nothing new. Senator Dianne Feinstein got a permit to carry a concealed handgun in San Francisco. There has always been one set of rules for the powerful and another set for the rest of us.
- sokoloff 6y ago
  One rule for me, another for thee...
  - simonh 6y ago
    Er, no. Different laws at different times. If CC were made illegal, it would be illegal for her too. Or is she actually advocating for different laws for different people?
    - tesmar2 6y ago
      Yes but you shouldn’t need a permit to get one, in the spirit of the 2nd amendment. Having permits just makes 2 classes of people, those with connections to the sheriff and regular Joes.
    - TaylorAlexander 6y ago
      What do you do when you want it to be legal for some people and illegal for other people? Make an opaque approval process and don’t approve very many people. My understanding based on some details I heard a few years ago (so I am no expert) is that this is exactly what happened.
    - treeman79 6y ago
      She and her class are above the laws.
- scurvy 6y ago
  She had one because the anarcho hippie terrorist groups of SF targeted her and shot up her home several times. When the group was arrested/disbanded, she let her permit lapse. While I agree it sucks that some rich and powerful people seem to live by a different set of rules, it's not like she had a permit just for kicks.
  - TaylorAlexander 6y ago
    But that’s the whole point of a CCW permit. If you’re at risk you should be allowed to have one, and yet she works to make that impossible for all but the powerful and connected. It’s fine that she has one but it’s not fine that she doesn’t let regular Californians go through the same application process without money or connections.
    - scurvy 6y ago
      My point was to show that she had a legitimate need, then let the permit lapse when she no longer had a need. She didn't have one for an abuse of power. I wasn't debating the merits of the CA shall issue policy. In other words, don't pick a fight where there isn't one.
      - tw158f23915e2a 6y ago
        > My point was to show that she had a legitimate need No one was arguing otherwise. The comments you were replying to were clearly about the hypocrisy of anti-gun politicians. > In other words, don't pick a fight where there isn't one. Indeed.
      - unishark 6y ago
        Don't senators get (armed) govt security protection anyway when they are threatened?
        scurvy 6y ago
        She was mayor of San Francisco at the time.
- makomk 6y ago
  What gets me as a Brit is when wealthy Hollywood celebrities campaigning for gun control point to our country's gun laws as an example and then insist that of course their security guards should be allowed to carry guns. (Private sector armed security is basically illegal here.) Of course, what really really gets me is when they talk about our total ban on guns while insisting that their security guards don't count because they have handguns and not big scary rifles, because the total UK ban they're likely thinking of is on handgun ownership specifically.
billylindeman 6y ago
IDK why you're getting downvoted.. I looked into this when I moved to SF and was astonished that it was basically impossible to get a CCW. Coming from the Detroit area this was a MAJOR shock to me.
Grakel 6y ago
I'm surprised Pelosi thinks she even needs one. Rules for you and not for me.

Rapzid 6y ago

I wouldn't call it paying a bribe so much as paying a ransom. It does not surprise me at all that this is happening given how much authority the Sherrif's have over CCW and how few they give out. Show me the incentives and I will show you the outcome.

treeman79 6y ago
The ability to deny something is very powerful. Gives others great power over others.

acituan 6y ago

> but, in some countries, you report your bribes on taxes, they're so common. Can you give any examples of those countries? Countries with high amount of bribing tend to also be countries with large off-the-record economies, therefore I am skeptical of that proposition. FYI in the US, you can claim tax deductibility on bribes paid in foreign countries iff they are not legally classified as bribes in the respective local laws.

smnrchrds 6y ago
>> but, in some countries, you report your bribes on taxes > Can you give any examples of those countries? Germany used to be like this, but it they changed the law many years ago. I don't know if there are any such countries remaining. The article below is from 1995, when bribes were still tax-deductible. https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/1995-08-06/germany-where-bribery-is-tax-deductible-intl-edition https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/1995-08-06/germany-w...
- neither_color 6y ago
  I know of examples from El Salvador, but couldn't find good info on their tax laws in Spanish. This report mentions that extortion rackets are so pervasive that larger companies hire full time negotiators to manage their bribes, and have it built into their business models. No matter how you codify it, or whether or not you really call them officially "tax deductible", they are in fact a real operating cost that an American business doesn't ever have to consider but a third world one does, and it drives up cost for the end consumer. Extortion is mainly demanded from businesses, but local residents may also have to pay “taxes” or renta to access their homes. No business sector is spared, and goods and professional services may be demanded instead of, or in addition to money. Large businesses and transport operators have dedicated employees to negotiate extortion fees, which are built into >their financial models. Implicit risk starts as soon as someone is targeted to pay, and it rises if they are unable to pay or the renta charged increases. Those who refuse to pay are killed. https://www.internal-displacement.org/sites/default/files/inline-files/201809-el-salvador-an-atomised-crisis-en.pdf https://www.internal-displacement.org/sites/default/files/in...

FireBeyond 6y ago

I used to work for one of the oil giants. They had codified standards for bribery, a la: "While we do not approve of bribery, we recognize that in some places we do business, they are an unfortunate necessity. To that end, we have standardized our practices to keep everyone involved as safe as possible".

deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
JackFr 6y ago
I hope there standard was to not do it, because it is a US crime for any US national, citizen or resident as employee, officer or agent of a US corporation to bribe or otherwise corrupt a foreign official. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_Corrupt_Practices_Act https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_Corrupt_Practices_Ac...
- cstejerean 6y ago
  One common exception is the so called grease payments which you’ll need to get anything done in any reasonable time frame. > Regarding payments to foreign officials, the act draws a distinction between bribery and facilitation or "grease payments", which may be permissible under the FCPA, but may still violate local laws. The primary distinction is that grease payments or facilitation payments are made to an official to expedite his performance of the routine duties he is already bound to perform.
- refurb 6y ago
  My understanding is there is an exception for bribes needed to get an otherwise typical process complete. In other words, you’re entitled to some permit, but without a bribe you’d never get it or not get it in a reasonable period of time. Such a payment is considered a grease payment (and not a bribe), which is lawful under FCPA.
- jefftk 6y ago
  I think you're assuming your parent is an American? (Looks like they're Australian: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25194634 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25194634)

reader_mode 6y ago

I know a guy who works on oil tankers and he was doing a gig in Africa. As he told it, basically every port there has a deal where you have to smuggle oil or stuff for them and tricks to get through standard inspections etc., etc. So a new captain comes on board and first port they get in he refuses to do this - they refuse to let them in the port - they were out at sea without resupply 20 days and running out of food... the company had to fly in a different captain to relieve this guy and he told me by day 2 weeks in they were already joking around how the captain could have an accident ...

treeman79 6y ago

A CEO from Japan came over to America to give a speech at his new factory. His English wasn’t great, so he spoke, and the translator spoke to everyone. Well at one point he went on about thanking local government officials, and that he would be sure to give them gifts for approving the project. The translator wisely left that part out. Confused, the CEO later asked why, then was shocked to learn that bribery is a bad thing in America. Google Fu is weak, so haven’t been able to find the original source. (May have been a Japanese language book)

draugadrotten 6y ago
> bribery is a bad thing in America Well. At least openly talking about it. Pretending it doesn't work in Americaa is ostrich syndrome. Just the first google result to prove my point. https://www.usnews.com/news/elections/articles/2020-10-22/trump-biden-trade-accusations-of-corruption https://www.usnews.com/news/elections/articles/2020-10-22/tr...
NikolaeVarius 6y ago
That doesn't scream "real" to me. Bribery is illegal in Japan. Thats why there is informal "gift giving"