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A private citizen of limited means paying a bribe is somehow reasonable because there's a huge power imbalance. Refusing to pay a bribe is also a refusal to pa

A private citizen of limited means paying a bribe is somehow reasonable because there's a huge power imbalance. Refusing to pay a bribe is also a refusal to participate in a racket. Local police can be extremely petty and extremely violent [1]. If a police officer told me he'd let me off for a bribe, I would probably pay it. I wouldn't be paying to get what I want. Rather, I would be paying to avoid the appearance that I disapprove of the bribery (and the possibility of resulting reprisal). E: And, of course, I would report that bribe as soon as it was safe to do so. And, of course, I'm referring to a scenario where I, as an individual private citizen, am told to pay money to a person with a gun who controls my immediate safety... which, importantly, brings us to the second half of this comment: But this isn't that. A high-level exec at one of the world's most powerful companies paying off a local LEO for a permit instead of, IDK, contacting the State or the Feds, is beyond inexplicable. [1] https://oklahoman.com/article/5666549/woman-recognizes-attackers-voice-in-threatening-messages https://oklahoman.com/article/5666549/woman-recognizes-attac...

bilbo0s 6y ago
Was going to upvote you, but I think even a private citizen of limited means failing to inform the Feds is an unforgivable offense against our society as well. Knowing about public corruption, and not reporting it, is tantamount to racketeering. No matter how much power you have.
- rmk 6y ago
  There are plenty of extenuating circumstances. For example, if you were a spouse of a corrupt law enforcement officer who's already facing domestic violence, would it be racketeering if you did not report your spouse's conduct? I am willing to bet it wouldn't (you have a credible fear of being assaulted, or worse yet, losing your life if you did so). This is why things like anonymous tip lines and whistleblower laws exist. You are encouraged, in general, to report misconduct. But there are very specific situations where it's illegal to not report misconduct.
  - randallsquared 6y ago
    Spousal privilege would cover this specific example, I think? But the example could be shifted to adult dependent child, maybe, to create the same situation.
- pjkundert 6y ago
  There was a time when reporting malfeasance to the federal authorities was the obvious right thing to do. Now it is clear that reporting criminal acts to eg. the FBI is very risky; if the officer is politically aligned to the politically and societaly dominant party, and you are not, you're toast.
  - dmurray 6y ago
    There isn't a politically and socially (?) dominant party in the US. There were recently bitterly and closely contested federal elections there.
wolco2 6y ago
That's probably one of the craziest things I've heard. Never commit a crime to look a certain way because it won't look that way tomorrow. The police could be trapping you. If not they now have dirt on you. How in the world can you explain that to a judge if it came to that?
- Swizec 6y ago
  When a person with a gun says do something, you do it. Especially if said person is an LEO in a country famous for above-the-law LEOs. Principles are easy to have from the safety of a keyboard. How many of us would keep them in a real world situation?
  - asdfasgasdgasdg 6y ago
    I guess it depends on whether the Apple guy had a reasonable fear for his life. If the Sheriff said, "Hey it would be cool if you guys gave me some iPads maybe I could grease the wheels on your gun permit," then I don't buy it. A reasonable person should not be afraid of the sheriff at that point. There's some risk in reporting the situation, but it's not that serious. Maybe you don't feel comfortable reporting him, so perhaps you decide you don't need that CCW after all. Giving the bribe is far from the only option, and the presence of any element of risk is not carte blanche for illegal activities. If the sheriff said gimme the iPads or I'll blow your brains out, that's another story. But I guess that's not what happened here.
    - noodlesUK 6y ago
      I think this is the particularly pathetic thing. Low level LE does this all the time, but in this case, Apple (and the security guy) should have reached out to their (likely) myriad contacts within the FBI/DOJ/CA State. It’s one thing if the little guy caves to government extortion. It’s another thing altogether if the big guy is willing to tolerate it where it could do something about it.
      - throwawaygh 6y ago
wl 6y ago
> A high-level exec at one of the world's most powerful companies paying off a local LEO for a permit instead of, IDK, contacting the State or the Feds, is beyond inexplicable. The State or the Feds don't issue CCWs in California. Chief local law enforcement officers only, which means sheriffs and police chiefs.
- throwawaygh 6y ago
  >> A high-level exec at one of the world's most powerful companies paying off a local LEO for a permit instead of, IDK, contacting the State or the Feds, is beyond inexplicable. > The State or the Feds don't issue CCWs in California. Chief local law enforcement officers only, which means sheriffs and police chiefs. No, but they do investigate other LEO agencies for corruption. See: the article.
  - joncrane 6y ago
    Right, and how long is that investigation going to take. Meanwhile Apple is short dozens of security guards to have a full detail necessary to protect the lives and wellbeing of the highest ranking executives in the country. The head of security at Apple is charged with protecting the lives and wellbeing of the top execs. He performed exactly as the incentive structure recommends.
- appleflaxen 6y ago
  The crime is bribery, which determines the jurisdiction is federal. Which laws were being overlooked by the bribe is not relevant.
Alex3917 6y ago
> A high-level exec at one of the world's most powerful companies paying off a local LEO for a permit instead of, IDK, contacting the State or the Feds, is beyond inexplicable. The problem is that, at least in many jurisdictions, gun permits basically only exist as a means for police to solicit bribes. There's literally an entire industry of people whose job is bribing police departments to get gun permits. C.f.: https://www.google.com/search?q=nyc+concealed+carry+bribes https://www.google.com/search?q=nyc+concealed+carry+bribes
- User23 6y ago
  I know an urban county in California where it's an open secret that one can greatly increase one's chance of having a carry permit approved by making the maximum allowed contribution to the sheriff's reelection campaign. This kind of reminds me of the UC admissions bribery scandal. There are legally approved ways to bribe schools and politicians, so if one is inclined to do so, at least follow them. But in both cases the idiots in question have gone about it in a flagrantly illegal fashion. I am not condoning the practice, but merely recognizing the system as it actually functions.
  - hedora 6y ago
    The frustrating thing in the US is that bribing the sherrif or the head of the university is legal, but bribing the low level paper stamper is illegal. That provides huge incentives for the most corrupt to rise to control the institutions they’re supposedly policing.
    - creato 6y ago
      I don't think these are the same thing. Donating to the Sherriff's reelection campaign is a lot closer to a bribe than donating to a university, because the Sherriff is benefiting personally a lot more than the head of a university is from a donation to the school. It would be more analogous if the donations were somehow made to the Sherriff department's budget.
      - 6y ago
rkt88edmo 6y ago
It's normal in CA because that is what elites do, often. They pay bribes to obtain general privileges of the public that are being withheld. Similar to the college admissions scandal. For CCW permits this has been an open secret in some jurisdictions for decades. Pay to play is elitist, classist, and hopefully they will be convicted for doing it.
- crx07 6y ago
  The mistake they made was bribing individuals instead of making a sizable donation to the department and then casually chatting up the brass at a heavily sponsored fundraising event, over a few glasses of wine, about how frustrating the delays have become for everyone. This sort of thing won't ever stop because of a few convictions, same deal with the college admissions scandal. It just raises the price.
sfkdjf9j3j 6y ago
I agree but I want to point out it's actually worse than you make it sound. One of the indicted officers is second in command in Santa Clara County!
StanislavPetrov 6y ago
Unfortunately, not only is it explicable, its common practice. Just a few years ago in NYC some of the highest ranking police officers in the city along with members of the prosecutors office were involved in a very similar scheme where they were selling gun permits (which are very difficult to get in NYC) to Orthodox Jews. To make things worse, the political connections of those involved in this massive crime allowed their names to be mostly excised from the reporting of this story in a variety of news outlets despite the case being covered for more than a year. https://newyork.cbslocal.com/2017/04/25/nypd-gun-license-bribery-scheme-case/ https://newyork.cbslocal.com/2017/04/25/nypd-gun-license-bri...
wavefunction 6y ago
downvote all throwaways >gun reference, or izzit
drusepth 6y ago
I had to pay two bribes (200 USD, then another 300 USD) to Cancun police to get a friend out of jail so he could make his flight home. They asked when his flight was (~3 days later), then said they'd hold him until the day after the flight unless I paid up. Definitely felt more like a ransom than a bribe in that I didn't really have a choice not to pay. I can definitely see how some people get suckered into bribes sometimes (especially with armed, intimidating police), but it doesn't seem like that is the case here.
- locusm 6y ago
  I used to work in emergency assistance (think travel insurance claims) and any job that took you to a number of countries in SEA meant you took $500 to $1000 USD for bribing officials for the sole purpose of retrieving passports.
goatinaboat 6y ago
Local police can be extremely petty and extremely violent [1]. If a police officer told me he'd let me off for a bribe, I would probably pay it That isn’t a bribe, it’s extortion. As an aside it’s hilarious that Apple wants concealed carry permits for its staff while replacing the gun emoji with a water pistol. Just goes to show a corporation’s marketing is nothing to do with what it really believes.

bilbo0s 6y ago

Was going to upvote you, but I think even a private citizen of limited means failing to inform the Feds is an unforgivable offense against our society as well. Knowing about public corruption, and not reporting it, is tantamount to racketeering. No matter how much power you have.

rmk 6y ago
There are plenty of extenuating circumstances. For example, if you were a spouse of a corrupt law enforcement officer who's already facing domestic violence, would it be racketeering if you did not report your spouse's conduct? I am willing to bet it wouldn't (you have a credible fear of being assaulted, or worse yet, losing your life if you did so). This is why things like anonymous tip lines and whistleblower laws exist. You are encouraged, in general, to report misconduct. But there are very specific situations where it's illegal to not report misconduct.
- randallsquared 6y ago
  Spousal privilege would cover this specific example, I think? But the example could be shifted to adult dependent child, maybe, to create the same situation.
pjkundert 6y ago
There was a time when reporting malfeasance to the federal authorities was the obvious right thing to do. Now it is clear that reporting criminal acts to eg. the FBI is very risky; if the officer is politically aligned to the politically and societaly dominant party, and you are not, you're toast.
- dmurray 6y ago
  There isn't a politically and socially (?) dominant party in the US. There were recently bitterly and closely contested federal elections there.

wolco2 6y ago

That's probably one of the craziest things I've heard. Never commit a crime to look a certain way because it won't look that way tomorrow. The police could be trapping you. If not they now have dirt on you. How in the world can you explain that to a judge if it came to that?

Swizec 6y ago
When a person with a gun says do something, you do it. Especially if said person is an LEO in a country famous for above-the-law LEOs. Principles are easy to have from the safety of a keyboard. How many of us would keep them in a real world situation?
- asdfasgasdgasdg 6y ago
  I guess it depends on whether the Apple guy had a reasonable fear for his life. If the Sheriff said, "Hey it would be cool if you guys gave me some iPads maybe I could grease the wheels on your gun permit," then I don't buy it. A reasonable person should not be afraid of the sheriff at that point. There's some risk in reporting the situation, but it's not that serious. Maybe you don't feel comfortable reporting him, so perhaps you decide you don't need that CCW after all. Giving the bribe is far from the only option, and the presence of any element of risk is not carte blanche for illegal activities. If the sheriff said gimme the iPads or I'll blow your brains out, that's another story. But I guess that's not what happened here.
  - noodlesUK 6y ago
    I think this is the particularly pathetic thing. Low level LE does this all the time, but in this case, Apple (and the security guy) should have reached out to their (likely) myriad contacts within the FBI/DOJ/CA State. It’s one thing if the little guy caves to government extortion. It’s another thing altogether if the big guy is willing to tolerate it where it could do something about it.
    - throwawaygh 6y ago

wl 6y ago

> A high-level exec at one of the world's most powerful companies paying off a local LEO for a permit instead of, IDK, contacting the State or the Feds, is beyond inexplicable. The State or the Feds don't issue CCWs in California. Chief local law enforcement officers only, which means sheriffs and police chiefs.

throwawaygh 6y ago
>> A high-level exec at one of the world's most powerful companies paying off a local LEO for a permit instead of, IDK, contacting the State or the Feds, is beyond inexplicable. > The State or the Feds don't issue CCWs in California. Chief local law enforcement officers only, which means sheriffs and police chiefs. No, but they do investigate other LEO agencies for corruption. See: the article.
- joncrane 6y ago
  Right, and how long is that investigation going to take. Meanwhile Apple is short dozens of security guards to have a full detail necessary to protect the lives and wellbeing of the highest ranking executives in the country. The head of security at Apple is charged with protecting the lives and wellbeing of the top execs. He performed exactly as the incentive structure recommends.
appleflaxen 6y ago
The crime is bribery, which determines the jurisdiction is federal. Which laws were being overlooked by the bribe is not relevant.

Alex3917 6y ago

> A high-level exec at one of the world's most powerful companies paying off a local LEO for a permit instead of, IDK, contacting the State or the Feds, is beyond inexplicable. The problem is that, at least in many jurisdictions, gun permits basically only exist as a means for police to solicit bribes. There's literally an entire industry of people whose job is bribing police departments to get gun permits. C.f.: https://www.google.com/search?q=nyc+concealed+carry+bribes https://www.google.com/search?q=nyc+concealed+carry+bribes

User23 6y ago
I know an urban county in California where it's an open secret that one can greatly increase one's chance of having a carry permit approved by making the maximum allowed contribution to the sheriff's reelection campaign. This kind of reminds me of the UC admissions bribery scandal. There are legally approved ways to bribe schools and politicians, so if one is inclined to do so, at least follow them. But in both cases the idiots in question have gone about it in a flagrantly illegal fashion. I am not condoning the practice, but merely recognizing the system as it actually functions.
- hedora 6y ago
  The frustrating thing in the US is that bribing the sherrif or the head of the university is legal, but bribing the low level paper stamper is illegal. That provides huge incentives for the most corrupt to rise to control the institutions they’re supposedly policing.
  - creato 6y ago
    I don't think these are the same thing. Donating to the Sherriff's reelection campaign is a lot closer to a bribe than donating to a university, because the Sherriff is benefiting personally a lot more than the head of a university is from a donation to the school. It would be more analogous if the donations were somehow made to the Sherriff department's budget.
    - 6y ago

rkt88edmo 6y ago

It's normal in CA because that is what elites do, often. They pay bribes to obtain general privileges of the public that are being withheld. Similar to the college admissions scandal. For CCW permits this has been an open secret in some jurisdictions for decades. Pay to play is elitist, classist, and hopefully they will be convicted for doing it.

crx07 6y ago
The mistake they made was bribing individuals instead of making a sizable donation to the department and then casually chatting up the brass at a heavily sponsored fundraising event, over a few glasses of wine, about how frustrating the delays have become for everyone. This sort of thing won't ever stop because of a few convictions, same deal with the college admissions scandal. It just raises the price.

sfkdjf9j3j 6y ago

I agree but I want to point out it's actually worse than you make it sound. One of the indicted officers is second in command in Santa Clara County!

StanislavPetrov 6y ago

Unfortunately, not only is it explicable, its common practice. Just a few years ago in NYC some of the highest ranking police officers in the city along with members of the prosecutors office were involved in a very similar scheme where they were selling gun permits (which are very difficult to get in NYC) to Orthodox Jews. To make things worse, the political connections of those involved in this massive crime allowed their names to be mostly excised from the reporting of this story in a variety of news outlets despite the case being covered for more than a year. https://newyork.cbslocal.com/2017/04/25/nypd-gun-license-bribery-scheme-case/ https://newyork.cbslocal.com/2017/04/25/nypd-gun-license-bri...

wavefunction 6y ago

downvote all throwaways >gun reference, or izzit

drusepth 6y ago

I had to pay two bribes (200 USD, then another 300 USD) to Cancun police to get a friend out of jail so he could make his flight home. They asked when his flight was (~3 days later), then said they'd hold him until the day after the flight unless I paid up. Definitely felt more like a ransom than a bribe in that I didn't really have a choice not to pay. I can definitely see how some people get suckered into bribes sometimes (especially with armed, intimidating police), but it doesn't seem like that is the case here.

locusm 6y ago
I used to work in emergency assistance (think travel insurance claims) and any job that took you to a number of countries in SEA meant you took $500 to $1000 USD for bribing officials for the sole purpose of retrieving passports.

goatinaboat 6y ago

Local police can be extremely petty and extremely violent [1]. If a police officer told me he'd let me off for a bribe, I would probably pay it That isn’t a bribe, it’s extortion. As an aside it’s hilarious that Apple wants concealed carry permits for its staff while replacing the gun emoji with a water pistol. Just goes to show a corporation’s marketing is nothing to do with what it really believes.