9 ms·

Seems a bit odd that Apple's Thomas Moyer is getting charged or at least that the headline suggests he instigated the whole thing. Unless Moyer was trying to by

Seems a bit odd that Apple's Thomas Moyer is getting charged or at least that the headline suggests he instigated the whole thing. Unless Moyer was trying to bypass some process or law to obtain the permits, it sounds like the county police are more at fault for demanding the bribe and Moyer just made the bad call of agreeing to pay it. The article notes that the county/police had been doing this racket for years so it seems likely Apple/Moyer would rather pay the bribe rather than get mixed PR of being a whistle blower (e.g large news outlet runs a piece on how many CW permits Apple requests).

SpicyLemonZest 6y ago
The challenge is that it was (I'm pretty sure) within the sheriff's discretion to deny these permits in the first place. So while the sheriff's office was surely wrong to demand a bribe, there was no reason Moyer had to agree to pay it either.
sandworm101 6y ago
Those who pay bribes for non-essential special treatment are as much criminals as those who ask for bribes. This guy has serious resources at his disposal and is allegedly willing to pay bribes. One must wonder if he has paid any others. I have little sympathy.
- kmonsen 6y ago
  I don't really have sympathy, but I think as much criminals is a bit too strong. I am also wondering if this is essential equipment for the security team.
  - sandworm101 6y ago
    Hidden carry is never essential for security teams. It is about looks. They dont want the guns appearing in potential photos of Apple events. The guards can carry guns openly just like every single street cop.
    - kmonsen 6y ago
      I think CA law will not let you have any loaded weapons transported without CCW. And loaded weapons is kind of needed to protect VIPs.
      - sandworm101 6y ago
        Then keep them unloaded. It takes less than a second for a pro to load a handgun. This isnt hollywood. Close protection details for large US corps virtually never fire a shot in anger. It is a once-per-decade event.
        ggreer 6y ago
        California forbids carrying a concealed firearm even if it is unloaded.[1] Also California's legal definition of a loaded gun is not what everyone thinks it means. For example, PC 25400 has extra penalties if the firearm is loaded or if, "...the unexpended ammunition capable of being discharged from it are in the immediate possession of the person or readily accessible to that person." That makes your suggestion just as illegal as carrying a loaded handgun. > Close protection details for large US corps virtually never fire a shot in anger. It is a once-per-decade event. The point of a concealed handgun is to react as quickly as possible to what is usually a once-in-a-lifetime event. Even if it only takes an extra second to load a magazine into a firearm, that second can mean the difference between preventing a murder or not. It doesn't matter how rare the event is. It matters what the consequences are. 1. https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/codes_displaySection.xhtml?lawCode=PEN&sectionNum=25400 https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/codes_displaySectio....
        cbozeman 6y ago
        Yeah, you're right... this isn't Hollywood. A determined attacker could seriously injure or kill someone in the time it takes to load your weapon and chamber a round. Your kind of ignorance almost makes me physically ill... you sound just like those women who take a self-defense course and think they can take down a 6'4" 295 lb. guy who looks like Arnold Schwarzenegger's bigger cousin. I'd love to see the look in your eyes when someone rushes you at 10 feet and stabs you with the blue plastic prop knife 99 times out of 100. Its the same look those women get when they realize, "Oh shit... it turns out someone who's got 150 lbs. of muscle over me can fight off my puny attacks." If guns were truly the ultimate force multiplier, military and police would never train for close quarters hand-to-hand combat. They aren't, so we do.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
- mlindner 6y ago
  > non-essential Having weapons for your security officers is quite essential, especially for a company as high profile as Apple.
  - wl 6y ago
    That doesn't require a CCW. The guards could easily get exposed firearms permits. They need the CCWs to carry concealed and off duty.
    - zaroth 6y ago
      You can't carry openly in many places, for example, in CA it is illegal to openly carry a handgun. [1] CCW is the only option, and they were holding this guy hostage by not issuing one when it was obviously necessary and appropriate. [1] - https://www.shouselaw.com/ca/faqs/can-i-openly-carry-a-gun-in-california/ https://www.shouselaw.com/ca/faqs/can-i-openly-carry-a-gun-i...
      - wl 6y ago
        It's not illegal to carry a firearm loaded and exposed in California if you have the proper license issued by BSIS, which is separate from a CCW.
        zaroth 6y ago
        That license is only applicable in specific circumstances, e.g. like for uniformed security guards.
        wl 6y ago
        Which solves the problem of needing armed guards.
      - Rebelgecko 6y ago
        You don't need a CCW to carry on your own property
CobrastanJorji 6y ago
> it seems likely Apple/Moyer would rather pay the bribe. It sounds like we agree on the facts. Apple, and specifically Moyer, decided to pay a bribe to a government official. Bribery is a crime. Why do you find it odd that he's being charged?

SpicyLemonZest 6y ago

The challenge is that it was (I'm pretty sure) within the sheriff's discretion to deny these permits in the first place. So while the sheriff's office was surely wrong to demand a bribe, there was no reason Moyer had to agree to pay it either.

sandworm101 6y ago

Those who pay bribes for non-essential special treatment are as much criminals as those who ask for bribes. This guy has serious resources at his disposal and is allegedly willing to pay bribes. One must wonder if he has paid any others. I have little sympathy.

kmonsen 6y ago
I don't really have sympathy, but I think as much criminals is a bit too strong. I am also wondering if this is essential equipment for the security team.
- sandworm101 6y ago
  Hidden carry is never essential for security teams. It is about looks. They dont want the guns appearing in potential photos of Apple events. The guards can carry guns openly just like every single street cop.
  - kmonsen 6y ago
    I think CA law will not let you have any loaded weapons transported without CCW. And loaded weapons is kind of needed to protect VIPs.
    - sandworm101 6y ago
      Then keep them unloaded. It takes less than a second for a pro to load a handgun. This isnt hollywood. Close protection details for large US corps virtually never fire a shot in anger. It is a once-per-decade event.
      - ggreer 6y ago
        California forbids carrying a concealed firearm even if it is unloaded.[1] Also California's legal definition of a loaded gun is not what everyone thinks it means. For example, PC 25400 has extra penalties if the firearm is loaded or if, "...the unexpended ammunition capable of being discharged from it are in the immediate possession of the person or readily accessible to that person." That makes your suggestion just as illegal as carrying a loaded handgun. > Close protection details for large US corps virtually never fire a shot in anger. It is a once-per-decade event. The point of a concealed handgun is to react as quickly as possible to what is usually a once-in-a-lifetime event. Even if it only takes an extra second to load a magazine into a firearm, that second can mean the difference between preventing a murder or not. It doesn't matter how rare the event is. It matters what the consequences are. 1. https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/codes_displaySection.xhtml?lawCode=PEN&sectionNum=25400 https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/codes_displaySectio....
      - cbozeman 6y ago
        Yeah, you're right... this isn't Hollywood. A determined attacker could seriously injure or kill someone in the time it takes to load your weapon and chamber a round. Your kind of ignorance almost makes me physically ill... you sound just like those women who take a self-defense course and think they can take down a 6'4" 295 lb. guy who looks like Arnold Schwarzenegger's bigger cousin. I'd love to see the look in your eyes when someone rushes you at 10 feet and stabs you with the blue plastic prop knife 99 times out of 100. Its the same look those women get when they realize, "Oh shit... it turns out someone who's got 150 lbs. of muscle over me can fight off my puny attacks." If guns were truly the ultimate force multiplier, military and police would never train for close quarters hand-to-hand combat. They aren't, so we do.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
mlindner 6y ago
> non-essential Having weapons for your security officers is quite essential, especially for a company as high profile as Apple.
- wl 6y ago
  That doesn't require a CCW. The guards could easily get exposed firearms permits. They need the CCWs to carry concealed and off duty.
  - zaroth 6y ago
    You can't carry openly in many places, for example, in CA it is illegal to openly carry a handgun. [1] CCW is the only option, and they were holding this guy hostage by not issuing one when it was obviously necessary and appropriate. [1] - https://www.shouselaw.com/ca/faqs/can-i-openly-carry-a-gun-in-california/ https://www.shouselaw.com/ca/faqs/can-i-openly-carry-a-gun-i...
    - wl 6y ago
      It's not illegal to carry a firearm loaded and exposed in California if you have the proper license issued by BSIS, which is separate from a CCW.
      - zaroth 6y ago
        That license is only applicable in specific circumstances, e.g. like for uniformed security guards.
        wl 6y ago
        Which solves the problem of needing armed guards.
    - Rebelgecko 6y ago
      You don't need a CCW to carry on your own property

CobrastanJorji 6y ago

> it seems likely Apple/Moyer would rather pay the bribe. It sounds like we agree on the facts. Apple, and specifically Moyer, decided to pay a bribe to a government official. Bribery is a crime. Why do you find it odd that he's being charged?