4 ms·

It doesn't matter what your understanding of the science is. By passing other people without having a mask you pull up, you're imposing your estimates of safety

by ummonk 6y ago

It doesn't matter what your understanding of the science is. By passing other people without having a mask you pull up, you're imposing your estimates of safety on others, who may wish to avoid having to pass people who aren't wearing masks, even outdoors. That's extremely obnoxious behavior, even though you're likely right on the low risks of transmission in sparse outdoor settings.

timr 6y ago
"By passing other people without having a mask you pull up, you're imposing your estimates of safety on others, who may wish to avoid having to pass people who aren't wearing masks, even outdoors. That's extremely obnoxious behavior, even though you're likely right on the low risks of transmission in sparse outdoor settings." Wait wait wait...why should everyone be required to cater to the most paranoid people in the world, or be considered "obnoxious"? Where does this end? If I walk down the street, and someone twenty feet away from me scowls at me because I'm not wearing a mask, that's objectively their problem, not mine. If you're so scared that you can't stand the idea of someone else being outside without obeying your rules, then perhaps you should reconsider being outside in the first place.
- ummonk 6y ago
  If you're annoyed by getting scolded for not wearing a mask, maybe you shouldn't be outside in the first place.
  - timr 6y ago
    I'm not annoyed. I recognize that some people have personal problems that I cannot change.
  - JPKab 6y ago
    I NEVER go within 10 feet of people on a trail without a mask. The rule is 6 feet, and I add the extra few feet to remove ambiguity. When I go to certain trails in the Boulder, CO area, there are many "mask nazis" who clearly are extremely paranoid, and on a power trip. They will absolutely not hesitate to scold and holler despite me walking off the trail and not going anywhere near them. Your assumption that everyone is rational and people getting scolded is a sign of their guilt is just wrong. For anyone that lives in the area, the worst are the Nederland residents. Territorial assholes when there isn't a pandemic, and now they feel empowered to really let you have it. Going 10 miles south to trails in Jefferson County, and as long as you stay 6 feet or more, people smile and tell you to have a nice hike.
kmonsen 6y ago
I don’t know, I also run outdoors without a mask. If I see someone I cross the road and make sure I stay at least 5 m/yards away from anyone.
- ummonk 6y ago
  Yeah that's very reasonable behavior. I doubt the person upthread is doing this though, given that he seems to be going close enough to people that they can stop and scold him.
  - kmonsen 6y ago
    Yeah, if someone tries to speak to me I run away for sure if I don't have a mask. Not going to have a discussion with strangers these days unless it is on the internet :-)
- pgodzin 6y ago
  Very hard to do in denser cities with narrow sidewalks and heavy foot traffic, or around park paths
basicneo 6y ago
When someone drives a car, they impose their estimates of safety on pedestrians. Is that obnoxious?
- deadmutex 6y ago
  I don't think you can accurately make simple analogies like this. What is discussed here is more like what speed you should be going if you driving path intersects a pedestrian's path (possibly in a crosswalk). Then there is a difference between someone stopping and seeing the pedestrian is very far away and turning right vs. someone doing a 45 mph and driving within a few feet of a pedestrian. Different drivers and pedestrians will have different expectations.
  - basicneo 6y ago
    No, it's all degrees of risk. The only accurate way is to quantify the risk, rather than blindly assert "extremely obnoxious behavior".
- andrewem 6y ago
  Yes. People driving kill thousands of pedestrians every year. People act like “but cars kill more people!” is an argument in favor of whatever dangerous thing they’re talking about, not an argument against the way cars and roads are designed and operated.
  - basicneo 6y ago
    I agree, FWIW.
- ummonk 6y ago
  In many cases yes. E.g. drivers who use residential streets as through streets are certainly obnoxious.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
ghaff 6y ago
I agree up to a point. Though I'd observe that outdoor dining with tables separated by 6 feet with people sitting for an extended period of time without masks is happening widely in many places. So the idea that outdoor dining is safe but walking past other people on a trail is not is pretty inconsistent.
- GiorgioG 6y ago
  I see it all the time and I personally think it's incredibly irresponsible. But hey - we have to keep the restaurants in business...at the expense of prolonging the pandemic. Here's an idea, you can already keep them in business, order delivery w/ no-contact delivery. Yes, life is certainly inconvenienced, but what's the alternative? Is going out to dinner worth directly or indirectly killing another human being over?
  - ghaff 6y ago
    Or the people who don't want to eat at restaurants and walk past people on a trail should just stay home. I certainly haven't seen the evidence that these are risky activities. You can't eliminate any risk without literally putting everyone in quarantine by themselves.
    - GiorgioG 6y ago
      > Or the people who don't want to eat at restaurants and walk past people on a trail should just stay home. Spoken like a true narcisist. This is the exact behavior that produces the continued rise in cases across the country. > I certainly haven't seen the evidence that these are risky activities. Well, I'm glad you've appointed yourself epidemiologist-in-chief. > You can't eliminate any risk without literally putting everyone in quarantine by themselves. No, you can eliminate much of the risk by isolating with your household, occupation permitting. A little compassion for people would go a long way.
      - ghaff 6y ago
        I am following the rules in my very blue state. ADDED: (And, in fact, going beyond them as I'll pull up a neck gaiter on a trail if I'm approaching although distanced from people wearing masks--to increase their comfort level.) I also mostly avoid busier recreation areas and have only done outdoor dining a couple of times. But, yes, I think that so long as people are following what seem to be fairly conservative government guidelines, those who don't agree with the government's assessment should stay home rather than expect people en masse to behave in ways that go beyond state mandates and recommendations.
seanyesmunt 6y ago
If they don't want to pass people that aren't wearing masks, shouldn't they stay home?
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- SomeoneFromCA 6y ago
  No they should not, because to wear the mask all the time is much easier than to stay home all the time. Unless you are some entitled narcissist or something.
JPKab 6y ago
I support wearing masks, but have seen the science on outdoor transmission and don't wear one on the very empty trails I hike on. However, I saw a big flaw in your logic: So it's "extremely obnoxious" when the OP "imposes their estimates of safety on others", and the correct response is for the OP to allow the misinformed estimates of safety of the others to require a mask be pulled up. Why stop there? Some people think that a neck gaiter or cloth mask isn't enough. Why not wear an N95 outdoors since some people "wish to avoid having to pass people who aren't wearing [N95] masks, even outdoors". Who gets to draw the line between obeying the science vs obeying the theatrical needs of the anxious ignoramuses? Surface transmission isn't a factor with this virus, and yet I know a few folks who still insist on disinfecting every box they come in contact with. They are welcome to do that, but it's certainly not following the science. Am I to cater to these people to?
- GiorgioG 6y ago
  > Who gets to draw the line between obeying the science... The science should! Here's what the CDC says for high intensity activities: "Masks should be used in public settings, but if you are unable to wear a mask because of difficulty breathing during high intensity activities, choose a location with greater ventilation and air exchange (for instance, outdoors versus indoors) and where you can keep at least 6 feet from others during the activity." The trails and parks around here (North Carolina) have enough traffic and people who believe "I do what I want" that I don't feel comfortable visiting these places period.
gnusty_gnurc 6y ago
> you're imposing your estimates of safety on others, who may wish to avoid having to pass people who aren't wearing masks, even outdoors This is precisely the insufferable safety-ism that characterizes the 21st century. If you feel particularly at risk in the case of infection, and you'd wish to avoid infection - stay inside and isolate. Isn't completely fair to say that the frail among us are imposing on everyone else outdoors keeping healthy and not depressed by exercising, etc? If you "may wish to avoid having to pass people who aren't wearing masks": stay home!

by ummonk 6y ago

timr 6y ago

"By passing other people without having a mask you pull up, you're imposing your estimates of safety on others, who may wish to avoid having to pass people who aren't wearing masks, even outdoors. That's extremely obnoxious behavior, even though you're likely right on the low risks of transmission in sparse outdoor settings." Wait wait wait...why should everyone be required to cater to the most paranoid people in the world, or be considered "obnoxious"? Where does this end? If I walk down the street, and someone twenty feet away from me scowls at me because I'm not wearing a mask, that's objectively their problem, not mine. If you're so scared that you can't stand the idea of someone else being outside without obeying your rules, then perhaps you should reconsider being outside in the first place.

ummonk 6y ago
If you're annoyed by getting scolded for not wearing a mask, maybe you shouldn't be outside in the first place.
- timr 6y ago
  I'm not annoyed. I recognize that some people have personal problems that I cannot change.
- JPKab 6y ago
  I NEVER go within 10 feet of people on a trail without a mask. The rule is 6 feet, and I add the extra few feet to remove ambiguity. When I go to certain trails in the Boulder, CO area, there are many "mask nazis" who clearly are extremely paranoid, and on a power trip. They will absolutely not hesitate to scold and holler despite me walking off the trail and not going anywhere near them. Your assumption that everyone is rational and people getting scolded is a sign of their guilt is just wrong. For anyone that lives in the area, the worst are the Nederland residents. Territorial assholes when there isn't a pandemic, and now they feel empowered to really let you have it. Going 10 miles south to trails in Jefferson County, and as long as you stay 6 feet or more, people smile and tell you to have a nice hike.

kmonsen 6y ago

I don’t know, I also run outdoors without a mask. If I see someone I cross the road and make sure I stay at least 5 m/yards away from anyone.

ummonk 6y ago
Yeah that's very reasonable behavior. I doubt the person upthread is doing this though, given that he seems to be going close enough to people that they can stop and scold him.
- kmonsen 6y ago
  Yeah, if someone tries to speak to me I run away for sure if I don't have a mask. Not going to have a discussion with strangers these days unless it is on the internet :-)
pgodzin 6y ago
Very hard to do in denser cities with narrow sidewalks and heavy foot traffic, or around park paths

basicneo 6y ago

When someone drives a car, they impose their estimates of safety on pedestrians. Is that obnoxious?

deadmutex 6y ago
I don't think you can accurately make simple analogies like this. What is discussed here is more like what speed you should be going if you driving path intersects a pedestrian's path (possibly in a crosswalk). Then there is a difference between someone stopping and seeing the pedestrian is very far away and turning right vs. someone doing a 45 mph and driving within a few feet of a pedestrian. Different drivers and pedestrians will have different expectations.
- basicneo 6y ago
  No, it's all degrees of risk. The only accurate way is to quantify the risk, rather than blindly assert "extremely obnoxious behavior".
andrewem 6y ago
Yes. People driving kill thousands of pedestrians every year. People act like “but cars kill more people!” is an argument in favor of whatever dangerous thing they’re talking about, not an argument against the way cars and roads are designed and operated.
- basicneo 6y ago
  I agree, FWIW.
ummonk 6y ago
In many cases yes. E.g. drivers who use residential streets as through streets are certainly obnoxious.

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

ghaff 6y ago

I agree up to a point. Though I'd observe that outdoor dining with tables separated by 6 feet with people sitting for an extended period of time without masks is happening widely in many places. So the idea that outdoor dining is safe but walking past other people on a trail is not is pretty inconsistent.

GiorgioG 6y ago
I see it all the time and I personally think it's incredibly irresponsible. But hey - we have to keep the restaurants in business...at the expense of prolonging the pandemic. Here's an idea, you can already keep them in business, order delivery w/ no-contact delivery. Yes, life is certainly inconvenienced, but what's the alternative? Is going out to dinner worth directly or indirectly killing another human being over?
- ghaff 6y ago
  Or the people who don't want to eat at restaurants and walk past people on a trail should just stay home. I certainly haven't seen the evidence that these are risky activities. You can't eliminate any risk without literally putting everyone in quarantine by themselves.
  - GiorgioG 6y ago
    > Or the people who don't want to eat at restaurants and walk past people on a trail should just stay home. Spoken like a true narcisist. This is the exact behavior that produces the continued rise in cases across the country. > I certainly haven't seen the evidence that these are risky activities. Well, I'm glad you've appointed yourself epidemiologist-in-chief. > You can't eliminate any risk without literally putting everyone in quarantine by themselves. No, you can eliminate much of the risk by isolating with your household, occupation permitting. A little compassion for people would go a long way.
    - ghaff 6y ago
      I am following the rules in my very blue state. ADDED: (And, in fact, going beyond them as I'll pull up a neck gaiter on a trail if I'm approaching although distanced from people wearing masks--to increase their comfort level.) I also mostly avoid busier recreation areas and have only done outdoor dining a couple of times. But, yes, I think that so long as people are following what seem to be fairly conservative government guidelines, those who don't agree with the government's assessment should stay home rather than expect people en masse to behave in ways that go beyond state mandates and recommendations.

seanyesmunt 6y ago

If they don't want to pass people that aren't wearing masks, shouldn't they stay home?

deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
SomeoneFromCA 6y ago
No they should not, because to wear the mask all the time is much easier than to stay home all the time. Unless you are some entitled narcissist or something.

JPKab 6y ago

I support wearing masks, but have seen the science on outdoor transmission and don't wear one on the very empty trails I hike on. However, I saw a big flaw in your logic: So it's "extremely obnoxious" when the OP "imposes their estimates of safety on others", and the correct response is for the OP to allow the misinformed estimates of safety of the others to require a mask be pulled up. Why stop there? Some people think that a neck gaiter or cloth mask isn't enough. Why not wear an N95 outdoors since some people "wish to avoid having to pass people who aren't wearing [N95] masks, even outdoors". Who gets to draw the line between obeying the science vs obeying the theatrical needs of the anxious ignoramuses? Surface transmission isn't a factor with this virus, and yet I know a few folks who still insist on disinfecting every box they come in contact with. They are welcome to do that, but it's certainly not following the science. Am I to cater to these people to?

GiorgioG 6y ago
> Who gets to draw the line between obeying the science... The science should! Here's what the CDC says for high intensity activities: "Masks should be used in public settings, but if you are unable to wear a mask because of difficulty breathing during high intensity activities, choose a location with greater ventilation and air exchange (for instance, outdoors versus indoors) and where you can keep at least 6 feet from others during the activity." The trails and parks around here (North Carolina) have enough traffic and people who believe "I do what I want" that I don't feel comfortable visiting these places period.

gnusty_gnurc 6y ago

> you're imposing your estimates of safety on others, who may wish to avoid having to pass people who aren't wearing masks, even outdoors This is precisely the insufferable safety-ism that characterizes the 21st century. If you feel particularly at risk in the case of infection, and you'd wish to avoid infection - stay inside and isolate. Isn't completely fair to say that the frail among us are imposing on everyone else outdoors keeping healthy and not depressed by exercising, etc? If you "may wish to avoid having to pass people who aren't wearing masks": stay home!