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It is not “in fact a much larger amount” - it actually looks to be about the same. The article estimates about $50bn wages are stolen every year, while [1] sugg

It is not “in fact a much larger amount” - it actually looks to be about the same. The article estimates about $50bn wages are stolen every year, while [1] suggests about $50bn is stolen/embezzled by employees every year. I will add that even if the net amount is the same, it is much worse morally to rob a worker than a business. [1] https://www.cnbc.com/2017/09/12/workplace-crime-costs-us-businesses-50-billion-a-year.html https://www.cnbc.com/2017/09/12/workplace-crime-costs-us-bus...

skrtskrt 6y ago
Without evidence, I would also imagine that the poorest workers are most hurt by wage theft, and not equally "benefited" by theft/embezzlement.
woopwoop 6y ago
Color me genuinely surprised. I would have guessed that wage theft was much larger. Experience suggests to me that ~everyone has been pressured at least once to roll hours forward to avoid overtime, but most people don't shoplift.
- loeg 6y ago
  There may be fewer embezzlers with disproportionately high average theft, probably with a much more skewed distribution (a few very large embezzlements covers a lot of minimum wage hours).
  - Gibbon1 6y ago
    My mother was a CPA that audited businesses. Someone embezzling 4 figures was unremarkable.
    - loeg 6y ago
      Four figures covers a lot of minimum wage hours.
- thatguy0900 6y ago
  I think you would be surprised about the most people don't shoplift bit. I've worked at krogers and target, and I would wager most employees did. Nothing huge and not cash but some food here and a drink there and you're talking real money in a years time. Edit: just remembered a funny anecdote, a employee was caught stealing food at krogers, but it was normal enough that they told him if he paid for it they would forget it happened. He pretended to check out and was caught stealing the same food twice so they had to fire him. It was like a 2$ sandwich.
- ojnabieoot 6y ago
  Keep in mind that’s employee losses, not shoplifting, so it includes corrupt expense reports, embezzling retirement funds, etc.
- Spooky23 6y ago
  The number conveniently adds up. There’s a line between appropriate controls and theft, for example being forced to get searched without pay, having forced unpaid breaks, or enforcing late clock in.
projectileboy 6y ago
I think I would quibble with the first point, as retail losses are demonstrable, and wage theft is hard to quantify with any certainty. But in any case, I don’t think it matters so much in light of your second point, with which I strongly agree.
boomboomsubban 6y ago
So the CNBC article immediately mentions the $50 billion number, links to a source that requires a paid account to even see that $50 billion number, and then does not reference that study again. They then interview someone else about their independent research that only shows about $400 million in theft.
- ojnabieoot 6y ago
  That is an extremely good point - I grabbed that article because I was just looking for a source. In retrospect I shouldn’t have trusted CNBC. I believe the data is based off the Hiscox report [1], which makes the extremely important point that 85% of losses are due to employees at the managerial level or above - who are of course far less likely to be victims of wage theft! So this “eye for an eye” mentality is truly gross, beyond just the ways where it’s self-evidently gross. [1] https://www.hiscox.com/documents/2018-Hiscox-Embezzlement-Study.pdf https://www.hiscox.com/documents/2018-Hiscox-Embezzlement-St...
RhysU 6y ago
Why is it morally worse to rob a worker than a business? An extreme case: What if the business only breaks even and it pays many specialized workers while doing so? Stealing from such a business and thereby killing the business will cost every worker his or her job. Stealing from this business is therefore equivalent to stealing the livelihood from every worker. The moral wrongdoing in this hypothetical scales like the number of workers.
- ojnabieoot 6y ago
  a) Being laid off is not nearly as bad as actually being stolen from (especially in countries with unemployment benefits) b) Speaking from personal experience: having your wages stolen puts you in a horrible position of wondering if maybe you’ll get paid if you keep your head down, or worrying that you’ll be fired if you complain. The extortion is inherent in the nature of the theft, unlike shoplifting and most corporate embezzlement. It’s not just the money, it’s long-term abuse and exploitation of people who can’t easily defend themselves. c) Obviously there is a scale: the Enron embezzlement (which is analogous to your extreme example) is worse than stealing $100 from a single worker. But $50bn in stolen wages is a much graver crime than $50bn in embezzled goods.

skrtskrt 6y ago

Without evidence, I would also imagine that the poorest workers are most hurt by wage theft, and not equally "benefited" by theft/embezzlement.

woopwoop 6y ago

Color me genuinely surprised. I would have guessed that wage theft was much larger. Experience suggests to me that ~everyone has been pressured at least once to roll hours forward to avoid overtime, but most people don't shoplift.

loeg 6y ago
There may be fewer embezzlers with disproportionately high average theft, probably with a much more skewed distribution (a few very large embezzlements covers a lot of minimum wage hours).
- Gibbon1 6y ago
  My mother was a CPA that audited businesses. Someone embezzling 4 figures was unremarkable.
  - loeg 6y ago
    Four figures covers a lot of minimum wage hours.
thatguy0900 6y ago
I think you would be surprised about the most people don't shoplift bit. I've worked at krogers and target, and I would wager most employees did. Nothing huge and not cash but some food here and a drink there and you're talking real money in a years time. Edit: just remembered a funny anecdote, a employee was caught stealing food at krogers, but it was normal enough that they told him if he paid for it they would forget it happened. He pretended to check out and was caught stealing the same food twice so they had to fire him. It was like a 2$ sandwich.
ojnabieoot 6y ago
Keep in mind that’s employee losses, not shoplifting, so it includes corrupt expense reports, embezzling retirement funds, etc.
Spooky23 6y ago
The number conveniently adds up. There’s a line between appropriate controls and theft, for example being forced to get searched without pay, having forced unpaid breaks, or enforcing late clock in.

projectileboy 6y ago

I think I would quibble with the first point, as retail losses are demonstrable, and wage theft is hard to quantify with any certainty. But in any case, I don’t think it matters so much in light of your second point, with which I strongly agree.

boomboomsubban 6y ago

So the CNBC article immediately mentions the $50 billion number, links to a source that requires a paid account to even see that $50 billion number, and then does not reference that study again. They then interview someone else about their independent research that only shows about $400 million in theft.

ojnabieoot 6y ago
That is an extremely good point - I grabbed that article because I was just looking for a source. In retrospect I shouldn’t have trusted CNBC. I believe the data is based off the Hiscox report [1], which makes the extremely important point that 85% of losses are due to employees at the managerial level or above - who are of course far less likely to be victims of wage theft! So this “eye for an eye” mentality is truly gross, beyond just the ways where it’s self-evidently gross. [1] https://www.hiscox.com/documents/2018-Hiscox-Embezzlement-Study.pdf https://www.hiscox.com/documents/2018-Hiscox-Embezzlement-St...

RhysU 6y ago

Why is it morally worse to rob a worker than a business? An extreme case: What if the business only breaks even and it pays many specialized workers while doing so? Stealing from such a business and thereby killing the business will cost every worker his or her job. Stealing from this business is therefore equivalent to stealing the livelihood from every worker. The moral wrongdoing in this hypothetical scales like the number of workers.

ojnabieoot 6y ago
a) Being laid off is not nearly as bad as actually being stolen from (especially in countries with unemployment benefits) b) Speaking from personal experience: having your wages stolen puts you in a horrible position of wondering if maybe you’ll get paid if you keep your head down, or worrying that you’ll be fired if you complain. The extortion is inherent in the nature of the theft, unlike shoplifting and most corporate embezzlement. It’s not just the money, it’s long-term abuse and exploitation of people who can’t easily defend themselves. c) Obviously there is a scale: the Enron embezzlement (which is analogous to your extreme example) is worse than stealing $100 from a single worker. But $50bn in stolen wages is a much graver crime than $50bn in embezzled goods.