6 ms·

What puzzles me is that many people understand it, they understand that Trump would not have done the bailouts, but they still voted for Biden over Trump. Their

What puzzles me is that many people understand it, they understand that Trump would not have done the bailouts, but they still voted for Biden over Trump. Their hatred for Trump's personality was somehow a stronger factor than the very grim economic consequences affecting them personally.

Jochim 6y ago
I'm not American so I could be wrong on this, but wasn't it the Trump administration that passed the previous stimulus package that disproportionately benefited the largest companies?
- tfehring 6y ago
  Yes it was.
- tartoran 6y ago
  Perfect example of what disinformation does to Americans. You are better informed than more than half the American nation. And sometimes is not even the lack of information but the desire to believe one narrative over another.
- john_moscow 6y ago
  From what I could gather, there was the PPP program [0] that had a restriction of "no more than 500 employees per location". Hence, it applied to small businesses, but bigger businesses segmented into several physical locations also made use of it. It did not result in redistribution of the market, since it did not explicitly lead to closing of businesses. If the program did not exist, small business would be forced to close, while the big segmented businesses would be more likely to stay afloat. So if you transactionally compare the "PPP" vs "no PPP" scenarios, the "PPP" scenario is better for small businesses. 2008-style bailouts, and the lockdown exemptions that California is doing, specifically benefit big businesses. If the big businesses were not bailed out in 2008, they would go bankrupt, opening market share to smaller players. If the COVID lockdowns affected big and small businesses the same way (say all restricted to selling essential items only), the market share of small shops would not be transferred to Walmart. Instead, the market itself would temporarily shrink. [0] https://www.sba.gov/funding-programs/loans/coronavirus-relief-options/paycheck-protection-program https://www.sba.gov/funding-programs/loans/coronavirus-relie...
claudeganon 6y ago
Trump already did the bailouts with the PPP loans, which largely went to big businesses and fraudsters and by muscling the Fed into intervening in corporate markets. There is very little difference on economic policy when it comes to screwing the working class in the United States.
olivermarks 6y ago
Hatred of Trump's personality was cultivated daily for four years by the DNC media. This was arguably a way to defuse populism, in much the same way Bernie Sanders was arguably a pied piper to nowhere for socialist leaning Democrats. We have an interesting period of history ahead with globalists versus populists all over the western world. What type of businesses investors back will arguably divide into those two factions also, basically nationalist or offshore.
- tartoran 6y ago
  > Hatred of Trump's personality was cultivated You mean Trump cult personality? I am usually centrist with give and take from both the left and the right, but lately Republicans stroke me as braindead on most attempted conversations and they don't seem to be waking up from this spell.
  - olivermarks 6y ago
    Yes I did pretty much mean attacking 'Trump personality cult'. I wasn't arguing for the blue or red team, I was making a broader point about future funding in the western world's current political climate. I regard the DNC as effectively the Republican party circa 2000 right now though, and there are two giant vacuums left by what are/were arguably strawmen in Sanders and Trump.
  - MeinBlutIstBlau 6y ago
    McConnel is the walking corpse. Trump could've gotten more legitimate stuff done if that old turkey wasn't just blatantly ignoring democrats all the time. Trump even wanted a bigger 2n stimulus than the democrats...which they would've happily agreed to.
- whateveracct 6y ago
  > Hatred of Trump's personality was cultivated daily for four years by the DNC media. Nope. It's literally been his words and actions. "Grab 'em by the pussy" wasn't a DNC smear job.
  - 6y ago
alexashka 6y ago
> they understand that Trump would not have done the bailouts There is no evidence to support this statement. The economy is fucked, regardless of who is president. It was fucked in 2008, it was fucked leading up to 2008, it's been fucked since. It's a humpty dumpty nobody can put back together again. Least of all, people on the internet who think a single decision is somehow a deciding factor in any of it.
- imtringued 6y ago
  Nobody might be able to put it back together but it is certainly possible to smash it into smaller pieces and make things worse.
satya71 6y ago
Is the Moscow in the handle meant to be a hint?
- john_moscow 6y ago
  Believe it or not, I grew up there and I saw where the road to excessive centralization leads. And it's kinda spooky to see the West recreate every fallacy of USSR, sincerely believing that this time it will be different.
  - satya71 6y ago
    Appreciate the response. I guess we'll agree to disagree.
  - triceratops 6y ago
    > it's kinda spooky to see the West recreate every fallacy of USSR Centrally-planned production targets for industries? Price controls? Strict control of information by the government? Single-party government? Prevention of emigration? Government harassment and persecution of intellectuals? Abolition of private property? I'm not really seeing any of that here in the West. What are you referring to?
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
travisporter 6y ago
I just don't understand this. A R-controlled congress agreed to bailouts that Trump could have vetoed. A stimulus went through, and the majority of Americans agree it's a good thing (not saying it was or not, economically speaking). Biden also wants to do a stimulus, so am I missing something?
- sangnoir 6y ago
  You're not missing anything - people see the world through a filter of their biases. The Trump administration & a republican congress also passed significant tax-cuts for corporates, which were pretty milquetoast[1] for everyone else. To add insult to injury, the corporate tax-cuts are permanent, but the one for the "rest of us" expires in 2021, IIRC. 1. IIRC, there was a teacher who complained at a senator's town hall that her $17 annual tax savings were worthless, and he retorted that she could use it to treat herself to a burger. To be completely honest, I can't recall the exact amount - or suggested purchase, but both were laughable.
nr2x 6y ago
He kidnapped the children of refugees, that’s not personality, that’s policy.
- cbozeman 6y ago
  That's Obama's policy, and that's a really shitty way of describing family separation with illegal immigrants caught at the border.
  - nr2x 6y ago
    ‘We Need to Take Away Children,’ No Matter How Young, (Trump) Justice Dept. Officials Said https://www.nytimes.com/2020/10/06/us/politics/family-separation-border-immigration-jeff-sessions-rod-rosenstein.html https://www.nytimes.com/2020/10/06/us/politics/family-separa...
  - nr2x 6y ago
    United Nations: What is a Refugee? A person forced to flee their country because of violence or persecution. https://www.unrefugees.org/refugee-facts/what-is-a-refugee/ https://www.unrefugees.org/refugee-facts/what-is-a-refugee/ Brookings: Violence drives immigration from Central America https://www.brookings.edu/blog/future-development/2018/06/26/violence-drives-immigration-from-central-america/ https://www.brookings.edu/blog/future-development/2018/06/26...
avs733 6y ago
let me put it this way... I'm working on some arbitrary science project. I have ongoing serious, well informed, disagreements with my colleague about how to proceed. Sometimes we later find out he's right, sometimes I'm right, sometimes we're both wrong. Should I instead hire my neighbors two year old because my colleague and I disagree?
- john_moscow 6y ago
  There's a different perspective as well. Let's say you have one colleague that speaks his mind all the time. Sometimes he says dumb stuff, sometimes suggests useful ideas. And another colleague, who's very nice and polite, agrees with everything you (and others) say, but he only does it to get optics points and is actually plotting how to replace you with someone cheaper. This is happening here and now. Tech monopolies are commoditizing human labor, and social justice/immigration policies use noble excuses to bring in lower bidders into the commoditized market. This hurts everyone's well-being, this creates unnecessary tension between groups that are forced to compete directly instead of operating in separate market segments, but hey, the figurehead behind the operation sounds like such a great guy, when he reads his speeches from a teleprompter.
  - avs733 6y ago
    we don't have a two different colleagues problem... we have a two-year old problem I agree in principle with most of what you are saying. However, my neighbors two-year old cannot launch nuclear weapons. [0] [0] https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/16123/what-we-learned-from-congress-latest-review-of-the-presidents-ability-to-use-nukes https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/16123/what-we-learned-...

Jochim 6y ago

I'm not American so I could be wrong on this, but wasn't it the Trump administration that passed the previous stimulus package that disproportionately benefited the largest companies?

tfehring 6y ago
Yes it was.
tartoran 6y ago
Perfect example of what disinformation does to Americans. You are better informed than more than half the American nation. And sometimes is not even the lack of information but the desire to believe one narrative over another.
john_moscow 6y ago
From what I could gather, there was the PPP program [0] that had a restriction of "no more than 500 employees per location". Hence, it applied to small businesses, but bigger businesses segmented into several physical locations also made use of it. It did not result in redistribution of the market, since it did not explicitly lead to closing of businesses. If the program did not exist, small business would be forced to close, while the big segmented businesses would be more likely to stay afloat. So if you transactionally compare the "PPP" vs "no PPP" scenarios, the "PPP" scenario is better for small businesses. 2008-style bailouts, and the lockdown exemptions that California is doing, specifically benefit big businesses. If the big businesses were not bailed out in 2008, they would go bankrupt, opening market share to smaller players. If the COVID lockdowns affected big and small businesses the same way (say all restricted to selling essential items only), the market share of small shops would not be transferred to Walmart. Instead, the market itself would temporarily shrink. [0] https://www.sba.gov/funding-programs/loans/coronavirus-relief-options/paycheck-protection-program https://www.sba.gov/funding-programs/loans/coronavirus-relie...

claudeganon 6y ago

Trump already did the bailouts with the PPP loans, which largely went to big businesses and fraudsters and by muscling the Fed into intervening in corporate markets. There is very little difference on economic policy when it comes to screwing the working class in the United States.

olivermarks 6y ago

Hatred of Trump's personality was cultivated daily for four years by the DNC media. This was arguably a way to defuse populism, in much the same way Bernie Sanders was arguably a pied piper to nowhere for socialist leaning Democrats. We have an interesting period of history ahead with globalists versus populists all over the western world. What type of businesses investors back will arguably divide into those two factions also, basically nationalist or offshore.

tartoran 6y ago
> Hatred of Trump's personality was cultivated You mean Trump cult personality? I am usually centrist with give and take from both the left and the right, but lately Republicans stroke me as braindead on most attempted conversations and they don't seem to be waking up from this spell.
- olivermarks 6y ago
  Yes I did pretty much mean attacking 'Trump personality cult'. I wasn't arguing for the blue or red team, I was making a broader point about future funding in the western world's current political climate. I regard the DNC as effectively the Republican party circa 2000 right now though, and there are two giant vacuums left by what are/were arguably strawmen in Sanders and Trump.
- MeinBlutIstBlau 6y ago
  McConnel is the walking corpse. Trump could've gotten more legitimate stuff done if that old turkey wasn't just blatantly ignoring democrats all the time. Trump even wanted a bigger 2n stimulus than the democrats...which they would've happily agreed to.
whateveracct 6y ago
> Hatred of Trump's personality was cultivated daily for four years by the DNC media. Nope. It's literally been his words and actions. "Grab 'em by the pussy" wasn't a DNC smear job.
- 6y ago

alexashka 6y ago

> they understand that Trump would not have done the bailouts There is no evidence to support this statement. The economy is fucked, regardless of who is president. It was fucked in 2008, it was fucked leading up to 2008, it's been fucked since. It's a humpty dumpty nobody can put back together again. Least of all, people on the internet who think a single decision is somehow a deciding factor in any of it.

imtringued 6y ago
Nobody might be able to put it back together but it is certainly possible to smash it into smaller pieces and make things worse.

satya71 6y ago

Is the Moscow in the handle meant to be a hint?

john_moscow 6y ago
Believe it or not, I grew up there and I saw where the road to excessive centralization leads. And it's kinda spooky to see the West recreate every fallacy of USSR, sincerely believing that this time it will be different.
- satya71 6y ago
  Appreciate the response. I guess we'll agree to disagree.
- triceratops 6y ago
  > it's kinda spooky to see the West recreate every fallacy of USSR Centrally-planned production targets for industries? Price controls? Strict control of information by the government? Single-party government? Prevention of emigration? Government harassment and persecution of intellectuals? Abolition of private property? I'm not really seeing any of that here in the West. What are you referring to?

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

travisporter 6y ago

I just don't understand this. A R-controlled congress agreed to bailouts that Trump could have vetoed. A stimulus went through, and the majority of Americans agree it's a good thing (not saying it was or not, economically speaking). Biden also wants to do a stimulus, so am I missing something?

sangnoir 6y ago
You're not missing anything - people see the world through a filter of their biases. The Trump administration & a republican congress also passed significant tax-cuts for corporates, which were pretty milquetoast[1] for everyone else. To add insult to injury, the corporate tax-cuts are permanent, but the one for the "rest of us" expires in 2021, IIRC. 1. IIRC, there was a teacher who complained at a senator's town hall that her $17 annual tax savings were worthless, and he retorted that she could use it to treat herself to a burger. To be completely honest, I can't recall the exact amount - or suggested purchase, but both were laughable.

nr2x 6y ago

He kidnapped the children of refugees, that’s not personality, that’s policy.

cbozeman 6y ago
That's Obama's policy, and that's a really shitty way of describing family separation with illegal immigrants caught at the border.
- nr2x 6y ago
  ‘We Need to Take Away Children,’ No Matter How Young, (Trump) Justice Dept. Officials Said https://www.nytimes.com/2020/10/06/us/politics/family-separation-border-immigration-jeff-sessions-rod-rosenstein.html https://www.nytimes.com/2020/10/06/us/politics/family-separa...
- nr2x 6y ago
  United Nations: What is a Refugee? A person forced to flee their country because of violence or persecution. https://www.unrefugees.org/refugee-facts/what-is-a-refugee/ https://www.unrefugees.org/refugee-facts/what-is-a-refugee/ Brookings: Violence drives immigration from Central America https://www.brookings.edu/blog/future-development/2018/06/26/violence-drives-immigration-from-central-america/ https://www.brookings.edu/blog/future-development/2018/06/26...

avs733 6y ago

let me put it this way... I'm working on some arbitrary science project. I have ongoing serious, well informed, disagreements with my colleague about how to proceed. Sometimes we later find out he's right, sometimes I'm right, sometimes we're both wrong. Should I instead hire my neighbors two year old because my colleague and I disagree?

john_moscow 6y ago
There's a different perspective as well. Let's say you have one colleague that speaks his mind all the time. Sometimes he says dumb stuff, sometimes suggests useful ideas. And another colleague, who's very nice and polite, agrees with everything you (and others) say, but he only does it to get optics points and is actually plotting how to replace you with someone cheaper. This is happening here and now. Tech monopolies are commoditizing human labor, and social justice/immigration policies use noble excuses to bring in lower bidders into the commoditized market. This hurts everyone's well-being, this creates unnecessary tension between groups that are forced to compete directly instead of operating in separate market segments, but hey, the figurehead behind the operation sounds like such a great guy, when he reads his speeches from a teleprompter.
- avs733 6y ago
  we don't have a two different colleagues problem... we have a two-year old problem I agree in principle with most of what you are saying. However, my neighbors two-year old cannot launch nuclear weapons. [0] [0] https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/16123/what-we-learned-from-congress-latest-review-of-the-presidents-ability-to-use-nukes https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/16123/what-we-learned-...