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My impression is that the big road block to unlocking something like the industrial revolution is the precision of your tools. During the industrial revolution

My impression is that the big road block to unlocking something like the industrial revolution is the precision of your tools. During the industrial revolution there were big advances in metal tools. Maudslay's development of a metal lathe that could be used to make metal tools was a huge step forward. I think if you can reach this point of development you should be able to make continued progress using non-fossil fuel power sources. Are there other natural materials that could be used instead of metal to achieve this level of precision? I'm pretty skeptical on this. Are there energy sources, other than coal, that could be used to develop early metallurgy to the point where someone could re-invent Maudslay's lathe? I suspect that there are and given enough time someone would find one. It might take longer to reach this point but I believe we could get there.

lawrenceyan 6y ago
Charcoal is technically an unlimited renewable resource.
- jeffreyrogers 6y ago
  Unlimited only if you don't take time into account. A big reason for the switch from charcoal to coal in steelmaking was running out of trees to make charcoal from.
  - lawrenceyan 6y ago
    Not really an issue. Knowledge steadily accumulates over time. The key foundations of human intelligence and ingenuity will always remains regardless of whether or not fossil fuels exist for us to exploit. Non-renewable resources only served to speed up our industrialization.
    - mikewarot 6y ago
      > Knowledge steadily accumulates over time. No, it doesn't. Only knowledge that people consider to have value will be retained over time. Many things are lost to history, for example.. nobody knows how to make cobblestone. (Or so I'm told)
      - shrimp_emoji 6y ago
        I've never heard that about cobblestone, but Roman concrete and "Damascus" steel are other examples. Granted, we've recently (mostly) rediscovered how to make those, but it shows knowledge accumulation isn't monotonic.
        philwelch 6y ago
        There’s an important distinction here between losing the knowledge of how X people made Y, and losing the knowledge of how to do Y. For instance, the secret of Greek fire was lost to history, but I’m pretty sure napalm does the job just fine these days. As for Roman concrete, the Romans were blessed with some really nice volcanic ash, but we can build things out of concrete that the Romans never could thanks to rebar alone.
      - rebuilder 6y ago
        >nobody knows how to make cobblestone. Can you expand on that? I didn't think cobblestones were made? Don't you just pick suitable stones?
        mikewarot 6y ago
        In the United States, cobblestones were manufactured large blocks that were impermeable and very durable. Streets were paved with them.
        AngusH 6y ago
        I think it sounds like a Sett: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sett_(paving) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sett_(paving) (which is often called a cobblestone) Edit: Still being laid in Edinburgh...
        mikewarot 6y ago
        Here in the Midwest, far away from the granite blocks imported by ships there were companies that made additively "cobblestones", with their names on them, in my walkway there are such stones made in Attica, Indiana. The knowledge of how those were made, is apparently lost. Those things are tough like you wouldn't believe.
    - egberts1 6y ago
      There was a government project on how to design a 10,000 year sculpture indicating that this is a nuclear wasteland. No telling how to cut across language cultural barrier in case of a great reset.
- Symmetry 6y ago
  It won't go away baring climate shift but you're limited to 2 watts per square meter of forest cover, though, and that's forest you'll be tempted to turn into agricultural land.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
ajot 6y ago
You can make coal from biomass, mainly wood (I'm not sure if some other plants could be used), but I guess it is antieconomical if you need lots of coal for high furnaces to make iron and/or steel.
- SuoDuanDao 6y ago
  it was economical in the middle ages for hundreds of years! But, having decent steel for your knights' armaments was also an existential concern for most power centers, a more peaceful society might deal with different economics.
  - jabl 6y ago
    Large areas were also deforested to provide the charcoal. Roughly 100kg wood to produce 1kg iron. The Ruhr valley area was denuded already in Roman times due to this.
    - SuoDuanDao 6y ago
      Yup. It's pretty interesting the places that managed their woodlands responsibly over a long time - Japan and England both had pretty sophisticated approaches to not running out of this resource over the long term.
      - mdiesel 6y ago
        Still in the UK, the moorlands you generally see were once woodlands - apparently that's why they have the distinctive terrain you now see. That's not in the era of written history mind and was for farming rather than iron. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dartmoor#Pre-history https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dartmoor#Pre-history
  - Ekaros 6y ago
    For the demand of middle ages. Which wouldn't be nearly enough to even low level of industrialisation. For weapons and individual components and tools yes. But we can forget railways, ships, complex concrete structures. Basically most things large scale.
bluGill 6y ago
What is the use of a precision tool without the metallurgy to go with them?
- Nbox9 6y ago
  You can get pretty far along metallurgy with burning wood and charcoal.
- fredophile 6y ago
  I think there might be some confusion here. Let me restate my argument to see if it clears things up. I believe that if you can achieve precision tools you can use those tools to meet societies ongoing energy needs using renewable energy sources. This means that if you have non-fossil fuel energy sources available to advance metallurgy and toolmaking to the point you can make precision tools then you can reboot civilization without fossil fuels. I also think it is very likely that humans could do this but it might take longer than it did with fossil fuels.
EricE 6y ago
Indeed, precision was key: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gNRnrn5DE58 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gNRnrn5DE58

lawrenceyan 6y ago

Charcoal is technically an unlimited renewable resource.

jeffreyrogers 6y ago
Unlimited only if you don't take time into account. A big reason for the switch from charcoal to coal in steelmaking was running out of trees to make charcoal from.
- lawrenceyan 6y ago
  Not really an issue. Knowledge steadily accumulates over time. The key foundations of human intelligence and ingenuity will always remains regardless of whether or not fossil fuels exist for us to exploit. Non-renewable resources only served to speed up our industrialization.
  - mikewarot 6y ago
    > Knowledge steadily accumulates over time. No, it doesn't. Only knowledge that people consider to have value will be retained over time. Many things are lost to history, for example.. nobody knows how to make cobblestone. (Or so I'm told)
    - shrimp_emoji 6y ago
      I've never heard that about cobblestone, but Roman concrete and "Damascus" steel are other examples. Granted, we've recently (mostly) rediscovered how to make those, but it shows knowledge accumulation isn't monotonic.
      - philwelch 6y ago
        There’s an important distinction here between losing the knowledge of how X people made Y, and losing the knowledge of how to do Y. For instance, the secret of Greek fire was lost to history, but I’m pretty sure napalm does the job just fine these days. As for Roman concrete, the Romans were blessed with some really nice volcanic ash, but we can build things out of concrete that the Romans never could thanks to rebar alone.
    - rebuilder 6y ago
      >nobody knows how to make cobblestone. Can you expand on that? I didn't think cobblestones were made? Don't you just pick suitable stones?
      - mikewarot 6y ago
        In the United States, cobblestones were manufactured large blocks that were impermeable and very durable. Streets were paved with them.
        AngusH 6y ago
        I think it sounds like a Sett: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sett_(paving) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sett_(paving) (which is often called a cobblestone) Edit: Still being laid in Edinburgh...
        mikewarot 6y ago
        Here in the Midwest, far away from the granite blocks imported by ships there were companies that made additively "cobblestones", with their names on them, in my walkway there are such stones made in Attica, Indiana. The knowledge of how those were made, is apparently lost. Those things are tough like you wouldn't believe.
  - egberts1 6y ago
    There was a government project on how to design a 10,000 year sculpture indicating that this is a nuclear wasteland. No telling how to cut across language cultural barrier in case of a great reset.
Symmetry 6y ago
It won't go away baring climate shift but you're limited to 2 watts per square meter of forest cover, though, and that's forest you'll be tempted to turn into agricultural land.

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

ajot 6y ago

You can make coal from biomass, mainly wood (I'm not sure if some other plants could be used), but I guess it is antieconomical if you need lots of coal for high furnaces to make iron and/or steel.

SuoDuanDao 6y ago
it was economical in the middle ages for hundreds of years! But, having decent steel for your knights' armaments was also an existential concern for most power centers, a more peaceful society might deal with different economics.
- jabl 6y ago
  Large areas were also deforested to provide the charcoal. Roughly 100kg wood to produce 1kg iron. The Ruhr valley area was denuded already in Roman times due to this.
  - SuoDuanDao 6y ago
    Yup. It's pretty interesting the places that managed their woodlands responsibly over a long time - Japan and England both had pretty sophisticated approaches to not running out of this resource over the long term.
    - mdiesel 6y ago
      Still in the UK, the moorlands you generally see were once woodlands - apparently that's why they have the distinctive terrain you now see. That's not in the era of written history mind and was for farming rather than iron. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dartmoor#Pre-history https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dartmoor#Pre-history
- Ekaros 6y ago
  For the demand of middle ages. Which wouldn't be nearly enough to even low level of industrialisation. For weapons and individual components and tools yes. But we can forget railways, ships, complex concrete structures. Basically most things large scale.

bluGill 6y ago

What is the use of a precision tool without the metallurgy to go with them?

Nbox9 6y ago
You can get pretty far along metallurgy with burning wood and charcoal.
fredophile 6y ago
I think there might be some confusion here. Let me restate my argument to see if it clears things up. I believe that if you can achieve precision tools you can use those tools to meet societies ongoing energy needs using renewable energy sources. This means that if you have non-fossil fuel energy sources available to advance metallurgy and toolmaking to the point you can make precision tools then you can reboot civilization without fossil fuels. I also think it is very likely that humans could do this but it might take longer than it did with fossil fuels.

EricE 6y ago

Indeed, precision was key: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gNRnrn5DE58 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gNRnrn5DE58