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Apple have a history of denying anything until it's ready, and then they flip the script. While the article is clearly biased, it would be foolish to believe th

Apple have a history of denying anything until it's ready, and then they flip the script. While the article is clearly biased, it would be foolish to believe that Apple is a company that doesn't change course, going as far as total U-turns on public statements, as long as it's in their interests to do so. > They are what makes the mac popular with developers Developers believe that they're Apple's priority when it comes to hardware, especially the Mac, in large part due to the perfect intersect that was the MBP for many years. That tide already turned in 2016 with the new keyboard, followed by the touch bar. Like the joke that the 'S' in IoT stands for security (the joke being there is no S, and there is no security), there is no 'D' for developer in MBP. Apple have been consistently clear that 'professional developers' are not the primary target of their 'Pro' lineup across the board. Someone else made a comment on this forum that got my attention recently, that we're all so used to being courted as customers by (mostly free) services that we've forgotten that we're not always the target customer. Similarly, developers are only welcome in Apple's ecosystem if they play by Apple's rules. Like we've seen with the App Store, Apple will frequently alter the terms of the deal. All you can do is pray they do not alter them any further. None of this should diminish the extraordinary results that can be delivered by the M1. That is amazing.

pvg 6y ago
What are some relevant, analogous examples from this history?
- JKCalhoun 6y ago
  The first example I could think of actually counters the OP: when the iPhone launched and developers were told their only option on the platform would be via Web-apps. Of course Apple did a 180 soon after and introduced the iOS SDK. Not so sure if that was flipping the script when they were ready or that Apple had hoped to not have to open the OS but bent to the developer outcry (or saw that there might be some merit for growing the platform in opening it up).
  - iSnow 6y ago
    IIRC, some guys reverse-engineered the application packaging format and the APIs and were happily hacking away at installing their own apps. This awoke Apple and they created the AppStore. Other examples of Apple reversing course would be "No stylus on iDevices", no use of intel chips, no switch back to scissor-type keyboards.
  - matwood 6y ago
    Not sure if OP means me, but if so there is a big difference. Going from web app only to a full SDK is opening up the platform, and a big step forward. Going from macOS today, to only allowing apps installed from the app store would be closing the platform and stepping backwards in a huge way.
    - kilburn 6y ago
      > Going from web app only to a full SDK is opening up the platform How is that so? The initial promise with "web apps only" was that they would add the necessary APIs for people to develop web-apps that could do almost anything. Nowadays Apple (intentionally or not) is crippling the entire web-app ecosystem by not supporting the APIs that everyone else does (no notifications, non-standard manifest, etc.).
- cma 6y ago
  They said OSX dev signatures were only for security, then invalidated one or threatened to based on an iOS business dispute (later backed down after a judge ordered them to). Similar story with Apple Sign In (though no judge order there).
- satyrnein 6y ago
  Not exactly the same, but it reminded me of how they never made FaceTime an open standard after stating they would.
  - pvg 6y ago
    This is not so much a flip but probably the closest thing to a meaningful 'reversal' compared to the other ones in thread so far. Like, they never said they will never have an App store, styluses are still specialized rather than standard input devices, etc. Obviously, companies both change direction and fail to meet various expectations all the time but 'history of flipping the script' seems pretty tenuous to me, so far.
    - pvg 6y ago
      There's a few more I thought of in this vein, of various sizes: zfs java (and also ruby, python) as 'first class' Cocoa languages GC'ed ObjC runtime [Ancient history but kinda huge!] just about the entire post-System 7 technology stack and roadmap was tossed.
  - naravara 6y ago
    The behind the scenes story there is that Steve Jobs never actually cleared it with anyone when he announced it on stage, but it turns out FaceTime depended on lots of elements that Apple didn't have the rights to and, therefore, couldn't release into the open without the other rights holders' consent.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
- sangnoir 6y ago
  Steve Jobs incredulously derided both Android phablets ("no one wants these Hummer phones"[1]) and 7"/8" Android tablets ("They are so small, you'll have to file down your fingers to use them"[1]). All the while, Apple was working on both bigger iPhones and smaller iPads. When Apple's version of products were released, those niches weren't terrible, all of a sudden. 1. I'm paraphrasing
  - pvg 6y ago
    Sure but that's hardly Apple promising you to do or not do something and then doing the opposite. Jobs's schtick in these presentations always included talking smack about other products, nobody set their watches by that stuff. What makes it even thinner gruel is that in his lifetime, he was pretty much right - the Android versions of these products were poopy and Apple eventually made better ones. Do you think Job's shittalking in keynotes is actually solid supporting evidence that... Apple is going to turn Macs into iOS devices 9+ years after he died?
jdsully 6y ago
For a product not aimed at developers they spent a lot of time talking about how fast things compile during the M1 launch.
- pjmlp 6y ago
  Nevermind, that is the trend in HN that equates developers with writing UNIX cli applications and daemons.
Someone 6y ago
“Apple have a history of denying anything until it's ready, and then they flip the script” So does any company that paid attention in marketing & sales 101. An established hardware company has to sell what it has, and shouldn’t try to sell what it doesn’t have (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osborne_effect https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osborne_effect is the classical example of why not to sell what you don’t have (yet)) (if you don’t have anything to sell yet, selling what you don’t have is fine. See Kickstarter and early Tesla) I think the reason people think Apple is special at this is that Steve Jobs was very good at selling what he had and downplaying what he didn’t have.
pjmlp 6y ago
Apple products are targeted at developers as well, to developers that care about Apple eco-system, not those that use macbooks to actually do work for GNU/Linux.
jki275 6y ago
You realize they fixed the keyboard, right? The Touch Bar is irritating, but I don't have to use it. As someone who uses an MBP for development for 8-10 hours a day for work and another one for 4-6 hours a day for school, I'm pretty happy with them for development purposes

pvg 6y ago

What are some relevant, analogous examples from this history?

JKCalhoun 6y ago
The first example I could think of actually counters the OP: when the iPhone launched and developers were told their only option on the platform would be via Web-apps. Of course Apple did a 180 soon after and introduced the iOS SDK. Not so sure if that was flipping the script when they were ready or that Apple had hoped to not have to open the OS but bent to the developer outcry (or saw that there might be some merit for growing the platform in opening it up).
- iSnow 6y ago
  IIRC, some guys reverse-engineered the application packaging format and the APIs and were happily hacking away at installing their own apps. This awoke Apple and they created the AppStore. Other examples of Apple reversing course would be "No stylus on iDevices", no use of intel chips, no switch back to scissor-type keyboards.
- matwood 6y ago
  Not sure if OP means me, but if so there is a big difference. Going from web app only to a full SDK is opening up the platform, and a big step forward. Going from macOS today, to only allowing apps installed from the app store would be closing the platform and stepping backwards in a huge way.
  - kilburn 6y ago
    > Going from web app only to a full SDK is opening up the platform How is that so? The initial promise with "web apps only" was that they would add the necessary APIs for people to develop web-apps that could do almost anything. Nowadays Apple (intentionally or not) is crippling the entire web-app ecosystem by not supporting the APIs that everyone else does (no notifications, non-standard manifest, etc.).
cma 6y ago
They said OSX dev signatures were only for security, then invalidated one or threatened to based on an iOS business dispute (later backed down after a judge ordered them to). Similar story with Apple Sign In (though no judge order there).
satyrnein 6y ago
Not exactly the same, but it reminded me of how they never made FaceTime an open standard after stating they would.
- pvg 6y ago
  This is not so much a flip but probably the closest thing to a meaningful 'reversal' compared to the other ones in thread so far. Like, they never said they will never have an App store, styluses are still specialized rather than standard input devices, etc. Obviously, companies both change direction and fail to meet various expectations all the time but 'history of flipping the script' seems pretty tenuous to me, so far.
  - pvg 6y ago
    There's a few more I thought of in this vein, of various sizes: zfs java (and also ruby, python) as 'first class' Cocoa languages GC'ed ObjC runtime [Ancient history but kinda huge!] just about the entire post-System 7 technology stack and roadmap was tossed.
- naravara 6y ago
  The behind the scenes story there is that Steve Jobs never actually cleared it with anyone when he announced it on stage, but it turns out FaceTime depended on lots of elements that Apple didn't have the rights to and, therefore, couldn't release into the open without the other rights holders' consent.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
sangnoir 6y ago
Steve Jobs incredulously derided both Android phablets ("no one wants these Hummer phones"[1]) and 7"/8" Android tablets ("They are so small, you'll have to file down your fingers to use them"[1]). All the while, Apple was working on both bigger iPhones and smaller iPads. When Apple's version of products were released, those niches weren't terrible, all of a sudden. 1. I'm paraphrasing
- pvg 6y ago
  Sure but that's hardly Apple promising you to do or not do something and then doing the opposite. Jobs's schtick in these presentations always included talking smack about other products, nobody set their watches by that stuff. What makes it even thinner gruel is that in his lifetime, he was pretty much right - the Android versions of these products were poopy and Apple eventually made better ones. Do you think Job's shittalking in keynotes is actually solid supporting evidence that... Apple is going to turn Macs into iOS devices 9+ years after he died?

jdsully 6y ago

For a product not aimed at developers they spent a lot of time talking about how fast things compile during the M1 launch.

pjmlp 6y ago
Nevermind, that is the trend in HN that equates developers with writing UNIX cli applications and daemons.

Someone 6y ago

“Apple have a history of denying anything until it's ready, and then they flip the script” So does any company that paid attention in marketing & sales 101. An established hardware company has to sell what it has, and shouldn’t try to sell what it doesn’t have (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osborne_effect https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osborne_effect is the classical example of why not to sell what you don’t have (yet)) (if you don’t have anything to sell yet, selling what you don’t have is fine. See Kickstarter and early Tesla) I think the reason people think Apple is special at this is that Steve Jobs was very good at selling what he had and downplaying what he didn’t have.

pjmlp 6y ago

Apple products are targeted at developers as well, to developers that care about Apple eco-system, not those that use macbooks to actually do work for GNU/Linux.

jki275 6y ago

You realize they fixed the keyboard, right? The Touch Bar is irritating, but I don't have to use it. As someone who uses an MBP for development for 8-10 hours a day for work and another one for 4-6 hours a day for school, I'm pretty happy with them for development purposes