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Some westerners don't identify strongly with a specific country. I am one of those. We might consider the "good" of "all" people above the good of our country.

Some westerners don't identify strongly with a specific country. I am one of those. We might consider the "good" of "all" people above the good of our country. When that is your mindset, voting for policies that favor your own country, your own well-being can in fact feel wrong, if it is at the cost of other people's well-being.

AntiImperialist 6y ago
Greater good is often used as a reason to grab power from individuals, whether it is by foreign nations, corporations or even other national government. I am not talking about that. Groups exist for a reason. The biggest reason is that other groups exist. You can either be attacked by those or join them or create your own. Your group can be a political one, which in some cases may end up having their own nation state. If the group can defend a territory and its resources, sustain it, and gain respect, other groups may eventually acknowledge it. You may take these for granted but these things are not set in stone, they're fluid. Many people in Taiwan, Hong Kong, Palentine think they are a nation state. Most other nation state don't acknowledge them as such... mostly because they're not powerful enough. You can deny or devalue your own nationality but what you cannot deny is that nation states exist and they have incredible power, because they have to have at least enough power to defend and sustain themselves. They are definitely not the only organized power structures, but they are major ones. Maybe Open Society Foundation is right. Maybe all borders should be open, everything should be controlled by shared ideals with one world government and efficient open economy. They seem to think they have ways to make that work. Maybe they can. But until and unless they do that, we have to live with the ones we have, which grant the citizens certain rights and protections and subjects them to laws and regulations in exchange. What I am talking about in my previous comment is not these things. I'm talking about the brainwashing by various forces (Open Society Foundation being one of them), which have made nationalism repulsive... by using simple brainwashing techniques. Most of these people would not be able to have a rational conversation about cost/benefits of having nation states or favoring your nation. They're triggered into an emotional response when the topic comes up.
- TheOtherHobbes 6y ago
  That's quite an unusual view. It's not at all hard to find evidence of pro-nationalist propaganda because it's ubiquitous. Anti-nationalist views are much rarer and much less common in virtually all media. In the US you're going to have a hard time finding progressives who explicitly want to destroy America. They may disagree with American policy in a number of areas, but that's a long way from wanting to get rid of the country and its traditions. Likewise elsewhere. It's probably weakest in the EU because the EU isn't a country so much as a work in progress - and it doesn't even have its own sports teams. Personally I've never heard of the Open Society Foundation, although it sounds as if I'd agree with their views.
- pjc50 6y ago
  A set of relatively uncontroversial statements about Westphalian nation-states ... and then a dig at the OSF. Why does this always come down to people having a go at George Soros? Is it by any chance because he backed the Western side in Ukraine?
  - AntiImperialist 6y ago
    Why does this always come down to people having a go at George Soros? Why did I bring up an organization founded by George Soros, a person who believes that nation states should not exist, when discussing nation states? Why do you think?

AntiImperialist 6y ago

Greater good is often used as a reason to grab power from individuals, whether it is by foreign nations, corporations or even other national government. I am not talking about that. Groups exist for a reason. The biggest reason is that other groups exist. You can either be attacked by those or join them or create your own. Your group can be a political one, which in some cases may end up having their own nation state. If the group can defend a territory and its resources, sustain it, and gain respect, other groups may eventually acknowledge it. You may take these for granted but these things are not set in stone, they're fluid. Many people in Taiwan, Hong Kong, Palentine think they are a nation state. Most other nation state don't acknowledge them as such... mostly because they're not powerful enough. You can deny or devalue your own nationality but what you cannot deny is that nation states exist and they have incredible power, because they have to have at least enough power to defend and sustain themselves. They are definitely not the only organized power structures, but they are major ones. Maybe Open Society Foundation is right. Maybe all borders should be open, everything should be controlled by shared ideals with one world government and efficient open economy. They seem to think they have ways to make that work. Maybe they can. But until and unless they do that, we have to live with the ones we have, which grant the citizens certain rights and protections and subjects them to laws and regulations in exchange. What I am talking about in my previous comment is not these things. I'm talking about the brainwashing by various forces (Open Society Foundation being one of them), which have made nationalism repulsive... by using simple brainwashing techniques. Most of these people would not be able to have a rational conversation about cost/benefits of having nation states or favoring your nation. They're triggered into an emotional response when the topic comes up.

TheOtherHobbes 6y ago
That's quite an unusual view. It's not at all hard to find evidence of pro-nationalist propaganda because it's ubiquitous. Anti-nationalist views are much rarer and much less common in virtually all media. In the US you're going to have a hard time finding progressives who explicitly want to destroy America. They may disagree with American policy in a number of areas, but that's a long way from wanting to get rid of the country and its traditions. Likewise elsewhere. It's probably weakest in the EU because the EU isn't a country so much as a work in progress - and it doesn't even have its own sports teams. Personally I've never heard of the Open Society Foundation, although it sounds as if I'd agree with their views.
pjc50 6y ago
A set of relatively uncontroversial statements about Westphalian nation-states ... and then a dig at the OSF. Why does this always come down to people having a go at George Soros? Is it by any chance because he backed the Western side in Ukraine?
- AntiImperialist 6y ago
  Why does this always come down to people having a go at George Soros? Why did I bring up an organization founded by George Soros, a person who believes that nation states should not exist, when discussing nation states? Why do you think?