4 ms·

You moved the benchmark from "child trafficking" to "child separation." Many would argue, correctly or not, that the policies of not having children housed wit

You moved the benchmark from "child trafficking" to "child separation." Many would argue, correctly or not, that the policies of not having children housed with whatever adult they cross the border with is in service of avoiding child trafficking.

runarberg 6y ago
Sorry about that, it is just that ICE were probably breaking the law when they engaged in child separation. The parent is asking if it couldn’t simply be the case that evil things would rather be illegal then up to a company. Unfortunately we demonstrably live in a world where evil things that are probably illegal are still done by a government sanction agencies. Child separation is the thing that they do which demonstrates this. That is why I moved the benchmark.
- AdamJacobMuller 6y ago
  I don't see the link between: > The family is the natural and fundamental group unit of society and is entitled to protection by society and the State. and: "children and their parents must be housed together when incarcerated" That clause (perhaps the entire UN declaration of human rights) seems incredibly ambiguous. Reading the whole declaration seems like it, perhaps, means protection of the specific enumerated rights of part 16 sections 1/2 which seems basically like the right for anyone to marry or not anyone they want and for that person to terminate the marriage when they choose.
  - runarberg 6y ago
    ICE didn’t just separate the family units during incarceration, they also failed to reunify them on release. They also forcibly sterilized other asylum seekers which is a whole another human rights violation. The USA has also signed—though not ratified—the 1989 Declaration of the Rights of the Child which has more explicit protections. I believe this was confirmed in US courts as they quickly issued an injunction of this practice. There is also the issue of why they are incarcerated in the first place. They have committed no crime, migration and seeking refuge is protected under international law. The UN universal declaration of human rights is written to be easily accessible and understood by the general public. And given that it was written 75 years ago I think they did a good job. I actually recommend everyone to read it entirely in your native language, as it has probably been translated into it and will only take a few minutes. A beautiful document indeed. The important thing here though is not how rigorously defined these rights are, but the spirit of the law is clearly saying that the family is a fundamental unit of society. Separating the family unit is a failure to uphold that principal.
    - dash2 6y ago
      Is there evidence for that forced sterilisation claim? I found this Guardian story but it only details an allegation, which hardly cuts it for such a serious crime: https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/sep/17/ice-hysterectomy-allegations-us-eugenics-history https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/sep/17/ice-hy... I must admit it sounds like the stuff of paranoid fantasy. Update: this from Channel 4 seems reasonably calm and balance. I had to hunt through a lot of clickbaity headlines to find it: https://www.channel4.com/news/factcheck/factcheck-were-mass-hysterectomies-performed-on-detainees-at-a-us-immigration-centre https://www.channel4.com/news/factcheck/factcheck-were-mass-...
      - krageon 6y ago
        > I must admit it sounds like the stuff of paranoid fantasy. For a country with a documented history of disrespect for bodily autonomy it seems entirely in line with expected behaviour to me.
        lawnchair_larry 6y ago
        Doesn’t sound like any country I know. Sounds like a silly AOC talking point.
        boogies 6y ago
        Sounds like China to me https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uyghur_genocide#Compulsory_sterilizations_and_contraception https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uyghur_genocide#Compulsory_ste...
        nagaiaida 6y ago
        Does it not? >Over the six-year period that had followed the passage of the Family Planning Services and Population Research Act of 1970, physicians sterilized perhaps 25% of Native American women of childbearing age, and there is evidence suggesting that the numbers were actually even higher. https://time.com/5737080/native-american-sterilization-history/ https://time.com/5737080/native-american-sterilization-histo...
- useragent86 6y ago
  > ICE were probably breaking the law when they engaged in child separation. Didn't the Ninth Circuit federal court order ICE to follow this practice? See the Flores Consent Decree.
  - krageon 6y ago
    It doesn't matter if the court says it's okay - it can still be a crime internationally (which it quite obviously is in this case).
- BurningCycles 6y ago
  As I understand it, the reason for child separation is that they can't certify that the adult traveling with them is their actual parent, and given that child trafficking is a reality and much worse than potentially being temporarily separated from your parent, I can't see what other solution is at the table ?
  - lawnchair_larry 6y ago
    There is also no such policy for legal asylum seekers. It’s easy to avoid.
dane-pgp 6y ago
> having children housed with whatever adult they cross the border with What is the threat model here? If the adult they are crossing with is trying to sell the child in the US, then having the adult and child detained together still prevents this. Also, at $250 for a paternity test, wouldn't a cost-benefit analysis make it rational to do that rather than risk the (more expensive) harm of separating a child from their parent?
- chordalkeyboard 6y ago
  > If the adult they are crossing with is trying to sell the child in the US, then having the adult and child detained together still prevents this. Until the detention is over and then you release them together? One threat model is child abuse. Detaining them together enables abuse. Another threat model is deceiving the government about the child trafficking. Separating the child and the adult allows investigators to question them separately without the adult coaching the child when investigators are not present. > Also, at $250 for a paternity test, wouldn't a cost-benefit analysis make it rational to do that rather than risk the (more expensive) harm of separating a child from their parent? This is a good point but not all children are biological offspring of their legal parents. When you suspect trafficking and the adult claims the child is adopted what do you do?

runarberg 6y ago

Sorry about that, it is just that ICE were probably breaking the law when they engaged in child separation. The parent is asking if it couldn’t simply be the case that evil things would rather be illegal then up to a company. Unfortunately we demonstrably live in a world where evil things that are probably illegal are still done by a government sanction agencies. Child separation is the thing that they do which demonstrates this. That is why I moved the benchmark.

AdamJacobMuller 6y ago
I don't see the link between: > The family is the natural and fundamental group unit of society and is entitled to protection by society and the State. and: "children and their parents must be housed together when incarcerated" That clause (perhaps the entire UN declaration of human rights) seems incredibly ambiguous. Reading the whole declaration seems like it, perhaps, means protection of the specific enumerated rights of part 16 sections 1/2 which seems basically like the right for anyone to marry or not anyone they want and for that person to terminate the marriage when they choose.
- runarberg 6y ago
  ICE didn’t just separate the family units during incarceration, they also failed to reunify them on release. They also forcibly sterilized other asylum seekers which is a whole another human rights violation. The USA has also signed—though not ratified—the 1989 Declaration of the Rights of the Child which has more explicit protections. I believe this was confirmed in US courts as they quickly issued an injunction of this practice. There is also the issue of why they are incarcerated in the first place. They have committed no crime, migration and seeking refuge is protected under international law. The UN universal declaration of human rights is written to be easily accessible and understood by the general public. And given that it was written 75 years ago I think they did a good job. I actually recommend everyone to read it entirely in your native language, as it has probably been translated into it and will only take a few minutes. A beautiful document indeed. The important thing here though is not how rigorously defined these rights are, but the spirit of the law is clearly saying that the family is a fundamental unit of society. Separating the family unit is a failure to uphold that principal.
  - dash2 6y ago
    Is there evidence for that forced sterilisation claim? I found this Guardian story but it only details an allegation, which hardly cuts it for such a serious crime: https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/sep/17/ice-hysterectomy-allegations-us-eugenics-history https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/sep/17/ice-hy... I must admit it sounds like the stuff of paranoid fantasy. Update: this from Channel 4 seems reasonably calm and balance. I had to hunt through a lot of clickbaity headlines to find it: https://www.channel4.com/news/factcheck/factcheck-were-mass-hysterectomies-performed-on-detainees-at-a-us-immigration-centre https://www.channel4.com/news/factcheck/factcheck-were-mass-...
    - krageon 6y ago
      > I must admit it sounds like the stuff of paranoid fantasy. For a country with a documented history of disrespect for bodily autonomy it seems entirely in line with expected behaviour to me.
      - lawnchair_larry 6y ago
        Doesn’t sound like any country I know. Sounds like a silly AOC talking point.
        boogies 6y ago
        Sounds like China to me https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uyghur_genocide#Compulsory_sterilizations_and_contraception https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uyghur_genocide#Compulsory_ste...
        nagaiaida 6y ago
        Does it not? >Over the six-year period that had followed the passage of the Family Planning Services and Population Research Act of 1970, physicians sterilized perhaps 25% of Native American women of childbearing age, and there is evidence suggesting that the numbers were actually even higher. https://time.com/5737080/native-american-sterilization-history/ https://time.com/5737080/native-american-sterilization-histo...
useragent86 6y ago
> ICE were probably breaking the law when they engaged in child separation. Didn't the Ninth Circuit federal court order ICE to follow this practice? See the Flores Consent Decree.
- krageon 6y ago
  It doesn't matter if the court says it's okay - it can still be a crime internationally (which it quite obviously is in this case).
BurningCycles 6y ago
As I understand it, the reason for child separation is that they can't certify that the adult traveling with them is their actual parent, and given that child trafficking is a reality and much worse than potentially being temporarily separated from your parent, I can't see what other solution is at the table ?
- lawnchair_larry 6y ago
  There is also no such policy for legal asylum seekers. It’s easy to avoid.

dane-pgp 6y ago

> having children housed with whatever adult they cross the border with What is the threat model here? If the adult they are crossing with is trying to sell the child in the US, then having the adult and child detained together still prevents this. Also, at $250 for a paternity test, wouldn't a cost-benefit analysis make it rational to do that rather than risk the (more expensive) harm of separating a child from their parent?

chordalkeyboard 6y ago
> If the adult they are crossing with is trying to sell the child in the US, then having the adult and child detained together still prevents this. Until the detention is over and then you release them together? One threat model is child abuse. Detaining them together enables abuse. Another threat model is deceiving the government about the child trafficking. Separating the child and the adult allows investigators to question them separately without the adult coaching the child when investigators are not present. > Also, at $250 for a paternity test, wouldn't a cost-benefit analysis make it rational to do that rather than risk the (more expensive) harm of separating a child from their parent? This is a good point but not all children are biological offspring of their legal parents. When you suspect trafficking and the adult claims the child is adopted what do you do?