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FTC commissioner met with Apple regarding Facebook’s iOS 14 complaints

109 points by aeromusek 6y ago

traceddd 6y ago
Facebook built it’s business on tracking users. It seems that’s solely their choice, only they reap the rewards and suffer the consequences of that choice. If users are fine with it the impact shouldn’t be horrible. If they aren’t, well, why does Apple or users have any obligation to care about the impact? Why is this a valid complaint?
- vmception 6y ago
  You explained it, its Facebook's only choice. Facebook didn't make a compelling argument, only that they felt obligated to attempt to use all available remedies to retain their advertisers and show their shareholders that they tried. It is a ridiculous use of public resources, but the FTC didn't give any indication that is was a valid complaint. Facebook didn't make an argument, only an observation that the feature would hurt their revenue. Kind of like "by the way it would be nice if you found some impropriety in how they rolled this out, we aren't aware of one, but would be adversely affected whether its all above board or not, okay thats all we got moving on".
- CharlesW 6y ago
  > If users are fine with it the impact shouldn’t be horrible. Exactly. So when Apple gives users choice, and users are fine with it, this won't impact Facebook at all.
Spivak 6y ago
I don’t think Facebook has really any ground to stand on when the choice is being given to the user. AdTech has been saying forever that “people want personalized ads” to justify data collection. If they’re right then obviously there’s nothing to worry about.
- eitland 6y ago
  Most annoyingly I actually thought I wanted personalized ads, but after giving Google the benefit of doubt for years after the DoubleClick acquisition it is clear to me they are hopeless: the ads mostly aren't targeted to me in any meaningful way. Facebook on the other hand manages to get my attention with products that matches my interests and budget (software products, photography products etc. I even ended up buying a safety razor that I am very happy with and wouldn't have though about without seeing that ad.) The irony is that Google should know quite a bit more about me than Facebook does but have been too busy showing me annoying or even insulting ads during the same time.
dessant 6y ago
Facebook's concept of informed consent is a cynical joke, and we can only laud companies and governments that rein in on their bordeline-illegal practices. I've recently signed up for Facebook to use Wit.ai, and have gone through account settings to lock down the account as much as possible. It took me about an hour to set everything to private in this new account, and I'm still not sure what would happen if I start posting on their platform. The settings page is not the only place that needs to be checked if you mind your privacy, there will be a myriad of configuration options and barely discoverable controls that appear in different places on your profile, and remain hidden until you submit further content.
- rendaw 6y ago
  When I had a facebook account (years ago) I would go through that hassle, and then a month later the settings would get reset and I'd have to do it again. I think there might have been some explanation like they were adding new privacy options or similar.
- Nextgrid 6y ago
  Facebook's take on privacy is also a joke. "Privacy" according to them is privacy from other users, but the concept of privacy from Facebook itself doesn't exist.
- ldrndll 6y ago
  Careful. I opened a Facebook account to help my wife with administering FB ads for her business. Everything was fine, until I went through and locked down my privacy settings, and within 24 hours my account got suspended.I had to provide a phone number to unlock my account. Within a day or two it got suspended again. This time I had to upload a photo to unlock it. The cynic in me believes that this was just so that they had enough information to identify me and match me to my shadow profile. Needless to say after that they declined to reinstate my account - without any recourse or right of reply - due to community policy violations. Given that my only contribution was managing ads - and my wife’s account remains unsuspended despite managing the same ads - I’m left drawing conclusions from my own anecdata that they very much don’t like having overly privacy focused accounts.
baybal2 6y ago
What business does FTC has with internet advertising?
- CharlesW 6y ago
  In the United States, the Federal Trade Commission's (FTC) Bureau of Consumer Protection is the governmental watchdog for consumer abuse from advertising and marketing (among many other concerns).
- heavyset_go 6y ago
  They regulate it in the US.
- snapetom 6y ago
  In case anyone is thinking the FTC is sticking its nose where it doesn't belong, the article doesn't illustrate that. It seems like the FTC basically came in and asked Apple "What's going on here?" All was apparently well when Apple doubled down on their position after that FTC meeting. The title is a bit click-baitey.
  - elliekelly 6y ago
    The FTC’s principal purpose is consumer protection and preventing unfair/deceptive business practices. Facebook isn’t a consumer and Facebook’s principal business is antithetical to the FTC’s mission. So while they certainly have jurisdiction over advertising they really ought not be acting on behalf of facebook in any meaningful way. Even to the extent consumer interests align with facebooks (I’m skeptical) the appearance of impropriety by having this meeting far outweighs any potential consumer benefit.
- skywhopper 6y ago
  They are in charge of regulating advertising in the US.
  - baybal2 6y ago
    Thanks for quick to the point explanation.
jedberg 6y ago
I was recently met with a new popup in the Instagram app, asking me to allow it to track me across applications. I actually said yes, because I get great targeted ads in Instagram and Facebook. I've clicked on multiple ads and actually even made purchases of things that I didn't know about that looked interesting. But the important part is that I do it willingly. I'm glad they were forced to ask -- not everyone is ok with that kind of tracking, and that's the whole point. I'm totally with Apple on this one. Give people choice. I made my choice, and everyone else should get to make theirs too.
- Despegar 6y ago
  I haven't gotten that popup. Are you sure that's actually a meaningful choice you can make and not just a test to see how many people are going to opt-in when this finally rolls out in iOS?
  - jedberg 6y ago
    No idea. Since I said yes my experience didn't change. Could be a test of some sort. I'm on the iOS beta so that might have something to do with it.
  - monocularvision 6y ago
    Have you maybe turned off the ability for apps to ask at all? I have.
  - overlordalex 6y ago
    I'm on Android and I get this popup in Instagram every few months (I'm assuming because I decline every time), so I doubt it's iOS related
  - macjohnmcc 6y ago
    The App showed a message asking if I would prefer targeted ads. It just asked me yesterday so there is hope for you!
- stingraycharles 6y ago
pmontra 6y ago
By the way, what would Apple lose in revenues if it blocked all ads outright, at least in apps where it has complete control of what it's allowed or denied?
- justapassenger 6y ago
  A lot and it'd likely kill large part of their ecosystem. Someone needs to produce apps and content inside them, and people don't like to pay for it.
- grishka 6y ago
  Apps that have ad-supported business models would probably abandon the platform altogether. And then people won't buy a phone if they can't use Facebook and/or Instagram on it.
swiley 6y ago
So Facebook having a harder time manipulating people on Apple's devices gets government attention but users being unable to install Linux or Coreutils natively (or at least having to go through ridiculous crap to do it) doesn't?
- zepto 6y ago
  Makes me think that the government might not be the people we should be asking to regulate Apple.

109 points by aeromusek 6y ago

Facebook built it’s business on tracking users. It seems that’s solely their choice, only they reap the rewards and suffer the consequences of that choice. If users are fine with it the impact shouldn’t be horrible. If they aren’t, well, why does Apple or users have any obligation to care about the impact? Why is this a valid complaint?

vmception 6y ago
You explained it, its Facebook's only choice. Facebook didn't make a compelling argument, only that they felt obligated to attempt to use all available remedies to retain their advertisers and show their shareholders that they tried. It is a ridiculous use of public resources, but the FTC didn't give any indication that is was a valid complaint. Facebook didn't make an argument, only an observation that the feature would hurt their revenue. Kind of like "by the way it would be nice if you found some impropriety in how they rolled this out, we aren't aware of one, but would be adversely affected whether its all above board or not, okay thats all we got moving on".
CharlesW 6y ago
> If users are fine with it the impact shouldn’t be horrible. Exactly. So when Apple gives users choice, and users are fine with it, this won't impact Facebook at all.

Spivak 6y ago

I don’t think Facebook has really any ground to stand on when the choice is being given to the user. AdTech has been saying forever that “people want personalized ads” to justify data collection. If they’re right then obviously there’s nothing to worry about.

eitland 6y ago
Most annoyingly I actually thought I wanted personalized ads, but after giving Google the benefit of doubt for years after the DoubleClick acquisition it is clear to me they are hopeless: the ads mostly aren't targeted to me in any meaningful way. Facebook on the other hand manages to get my attention with products that matches my interests and budget (software products, photography products etc. I even ended up buying a safety razor that I am very happy with and wouldn't have though about without seeing that ad.) The irony is that Google should know quite a bit more about me than Facebook does but have been too busy showing me annoying or even insulting ads during the same time.

dessant 6y ago

Facebook's concept of informed consent is a cynical joke, and we can only laud companies and governments that rein in on their bordeline-illegal practices. I've recently signed up for Facebook to use Wit.ai, and have gone through account settings to lock down the account as much as possible. It took me about an hour to set everything to private in this new account, and I'm still not sure what would happen if I start posting on their platform. The settings page is not the only place that needs to be checked if you mind your privacy, there will be a myriad of configuration options and barely discoverable controls that appear in different places on your profile, and remain hidden until you submit further content.

rendaw 6y ago
When I had a facebook account (years ago) I would go through that hassle, and then a month later the settings would get reset and I'd have to do it again. I think there might have been some explanation like they were adding new privacy options or similar.
Nextgrid 6y ago
Facebook's take on privacy is also a joke. "Privacy" according to them is privacy from other users, but the concept of privacy from Facebook itself doesn't exist.
ldrndll 6y ago
Careful. I opened a Facebook account to help my wife with administering FB ads for her business. Everything was fine, until I went through and locked down my privacy settings, and within 24 hours my account got suspended.I had to provide a phone number to unlock my account. Within a day or two it got suspended again. This time I had to upload a photo to unlock it. The cynic in me believes that this was just so that they had enough information to identify me and match me to my shadow profile. Needless to say after that they declined to reinstate my account - without any recourse or right of reply - due to community policy violations. Given that my only contribution was managing ads - and my wife’s account remains unsuspended despite managing the same ads - I’m left drawing conclusions from my own anecdata that they very much don’t like having overly privacy focused accounts.

baybal2 6y ago

What business does FTC has with internet advertising?

CharlesW 6y ago
In the United States, the Federal Trade Commission's (FTC) Bureau of Consumer Protection is the governmental watchdog for consumer abuse from advertising and marketing (among many other concerns).
heavyset_go 6y ago
They regulate it in the US.
snapetom 6y ago
In case anyone is thinking the FTC is sticking its nose where it doesn't belong, the article doesn't illustrate that. It seems like the FTC basically came in and asked Apple "What's going on here?" All was apparently well when Apple doubled down on their position after that FTC meeting. The title is a bit click-baitey.
- elliekelly 6y ago
  The FTC’s principal purpose is consumer protection and preventing unfair/deceptive business practices. Facebook isn’t a consumer and Facebook’s principal business is antithetical to the FTC’s mission. So while they certainly have jurisdiction over advertising they really ought not be acting on behalf of facebook in any meaningful way. Even to the extent consumer interests align with facebooks (I’m skeptical) the appearance of impropriety by having this meeting far outweighs any potential consumer benefit.
skywhopper 6y ago
They are in charge of regulating advertising in the US.
- baybal2 6y ago
  Thanks for quick to the point explanation.

jedberg 6y ago

I was recently met with a new popup in the Instagram app, asking me to allow it to track me across applications. I actually said yes, because I get great targeted ads in Instagram and Facebook. I've clicked on multiple ads and actually even made purchases of things that I didn't know about that looked interesting. But the important part is that I do it willingly. I'm glad they were forced to ask -- not everyone is ok with that kind of tracking, and that's the whole point. I'm totally with Apple on this one. Give people choice. I made my choice, and everyone else should get to make theirs too.

Despegar 6y ago
I haven't gotten that popup. Are you sure that's actually a meaningful choice you can make and not just a test to see how many people are going to opt-in when this finally rolls out in iOS?
- jedberg 6y ago
  No idea. Since I said yes my experience didn't change. Could be a test of some sort. I'm on the iOS beta so that might have something to do with it.
- monocularvision 6y ago
  Have you maybe turned off the ability for apps to ask at all? I have.
- overlordalex 6y ago
  I'm on Android and I get this popup in Instagram every few months (I'm assuming because I decline every time), so I doubt it's iOS related
- macjohnmcc 6y ago
  The App showed a message asking if I would prefer targeted ads. It just asked me yesterday so there is hope for you!
stingraycharles 6y ago

pmontra 6y ago

By the way, what would Apple lose in revenues if it blocked all ads outright, at least in apps where it has complete control of what it's allowed or denied?

justapassenger 6y ago
A lot and it'd likely kill large part of their ecosystem. Someone needs to produce apps and content inside them, and people don't like to pay for it.
grishka 6y ago
Apps that have ad-supported business models would probably abandon the platform altogether. And then people won't buy a phone if they can't use Facebook and/or Instagram on it.

swiley 6y ago

So Facebook having a harder time manipulating people on Apple's devices gets government attention but users being unable to install Linux or Coreutils natively (or at least having to go through ridiculous crap to do it) doesn't?

zepto 6y ago
Makes me think that the government might not be the people we should be asking to regulate Apple.