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> "Illegal" labor is ordinary and expected. I agree with your entire comment, but I want to emphasize the part about illegal labor. There are entire industrie

by csa 6y ago

> "Illegal" labor is ordinary and expected. I agree with your entire comment, but I want to emphasize the part about illegal labor. There are entire industries built on the back of illegal labor, and I think many otherwise informed Americans are not aware of this. We have some fairly substantial mismatches between our labor market and our immigration policies. Before someone says “just don’t use illegal labor”, please realize that this means that you will be out of business due to a lack of competitiveness since literally everyone else in your line of business does it. Personally, I have mixed feelings about this. On the one hand, maybe it’s just better off staying like it is — the market is clearing. On the other hand, I kind of wish proper enforcement of the laws would happen. This would force these companies to pay wages that legal workers would take. This, of course, would require them to raise their prices to the end user, but it would give legal laborers more... of something... definitely money, definitely rights, and maybe a bigger piece of the pie. I don’t work in any of these fields, but I know people who do. I would love to hear from HNers who have first hand experience.

Lammy 6y ago
> many otherwise informed Americans It also has to do with conversation venue. Think how many HN commenters work for companies like Uber/Lyft, just for one example.
joe_the_user 6y ago
There are entire industries built on the back of illegal labor, and I think many otherwise informed Americans are not aware of this. Indeed. The game though, is a big reason for hiring people illegally is to keep costs down. Because illegal workers area afraid to complain and will work for less. Now, when the average moron finds that there are lots of illegals in industry X, or in the country as a whole, they get up in arms about the illegals, support a crackdown but the crackdown doesn't remove the illegals but makes them more afraid, reinforcing the whole system. So the typical ideology of this country makes accomplices of people to the racket when sun light is (selectively) shed on the situation. It's funny that China runs their on the same legal/illegal division of labor but in China the "illegals" are internal to China, people from the countryside who don't have official permission to be in the city.
jessaustin 6y ago
To point out a particular example... One can hire various masons at various prices who would be capable of laying a flat brick or CMU wall. As soon as you require skilled masonry, of real natural stone or in walls or columns with interesting shapes and orientations? Now you're hiring Mexicans or Central Americans. At any price. One can imagine the several decades of law enforcement that would be required to change this situation, but it is an open question whether it would be a good thing overall.
fountainofage 6y ago
Theoretically, these businesses are already priced to maximize profit. So it could be that increased wages increases the cost to the consumer. It could also mean lower profits for the business if they've already priced at the max their customers are willing to pay.
conanbatt 6y ago
Uncracked illegal labor is just a tax incentive. Tax incentivizing construction is not crazy.

by csa 6y ago

Lammy 6y ago

> many otherwise informed Americans It also has to do with conversation venue. Think how many HN commenters work for companies like Uber/Lyft, just for one example.

joe_the_user 6y ago

There are entire industries built on the back of illegal labor, and I think many otherwise informed Americans are not aware of this. Indeed. The game though, is a big reason for hiring people illegally is to keep costs down. Because illegal workers area afraid to complain and will work for less. Now, when the average moron finds that there are lots of illegals in industry X, or in the country as a whole, they get up in arms about the illegals, support a crackdown but the crackdown doesn't remove the illegals but makes them more afraid, reinforcing the whole system. So the typical ideology of this country makes accomplices of people to the racket when sun light is (selectively) shed on the situation. It's funny that China runs their on the same legal/illegal division of labor but in China the "illegals" are internal to China, people from the countryside who don't have official permission to be in the city.

jessaustin 6y ago

To point out a particular example... One can hire various masons at various prices who would be capable of laying a flat brick or CMU wall. As soon as you require skilled masonry, of real natural stone or in walls or columns with interesting shapes and orientations? Now you're hiring Mexicans or Central Americans. At any price. One can imagine the several decades of law enforcement that would be required to change this situation, but it is an open question whether it would be a good thing overall.

fountainofage 6y ago

Theoretically, these businesses are already priced to maximize profit. So it could be that increased wages increases the cost to the consumer. It could also mean lower profits for the business if they've already priced at the max their customers are willing to pay.

conanbatt 6y ago

Uncracked illegal labor is just a tax incentive. Tax incentivizing construction is not crazy.