4 ms·

I coined the term - and it turns out someone else did too, for something else. So be it. If someone else can think of a better term that's never been used befor

by jph00 6y ago

I coined the term - and it turns out someone else did too, for something else. So be it. If someone else can think of a better term that's never been used before, then I'll happily use that instead. The earlier usage mentioned in Wikipedia is entirely uncited there however, and seems to have only been used in one academic project AFAICT.

kowlo 6y ago
How are you sure you didn't just read it somewhere and then forgot? It has been mentioned many times in related literature (even in publication titles) https://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=%22exploratory+programming%22 https://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=%22exploratory+programm... Here's one from 1988 https://dl.acm.org/doi/abs/10.1145/51607.51614 https://dl.acm.org/doi/abs/10.1145/51607.51614 Are these unrelated? Is Nbdev not only a "new programming environment", but also a new concept that needs a new name?
- tlarkworthy 6y ago
  "In some cases the estimates may be obvious. Perhaps the story is similar to others that have already been completed. In other cases the story may be very difficult to estimate and may require exploratory programming." Kent Beck and Martin Fowler http://index-of.es/Java/Planning%20Extreme%20Programming.pdf http://index-of.es/Java/Planning%20Extreme%20Programming.pdf Its a commonly understood term AFAIK
  - kowlo 6y ago
    > Its a commonly understood term AFAIK I agree - it's what made me raise an eyebrow... However, based on their comment above, the lead author of Nbdev believes to have coined the term. My opinion is that due diligence and attribution are important. If I believed I'd coined a new term, I'd check first. Mistakes are easy to make, but when highlighted, perhaps corrections are more appropriate than negotiating with the person highlighting them: From the lead author (jph00): ... If someone else can think of a better term that's never been used before, then I'll happily use that instead.
    - idf00 6y ago
      Why are people nitpicking about this? So the term/phrase he came up with was so descriptive that other people had also thought of the same term previously. He didn't steal anyones research on the topic, or steal code for the project, or deny credit to a developer working on a project. It's 2 simple words that are extremely common in the english language. Of course lots of people have happened to put them together before. This is my second time on hacker news, and I don't think I will be back. Why not offer to help the project, or show support? Why try to find something to fight about? It's just demoralizing to see the lack of kindness from people.
      - kortilla 6y ago
        People that “coin terms” that don’t spend the two seconds required to Google it and then spread around statements like “I coined it” are self-aggrandizing. It’s worth calling them out and discouraging this behavior because it leads to missing entire fields of previous work for both the author and people who build on the work.
        idf00 6y ago
        If you knew him at all or had bothered to spend the time to look at his work and projects in any level of depth, you would know he is not a self-aggrandizing person. And if the arguement is that this is a gateway action that leads to other bad things, that's not an arguement I put any stock in. It's used a lot in many places and many discussions, but just focus calling out the bad. It isn't his responsibility to ensure that some person building off his work at some point in the future does the appropriate level of research appropriate for their project. Assuming that an action is bad because you think someday down the road it might lead someone else to do something and that that something will be a bad thing is just ridiculous.
        kortilla 6y ago
        > you would know he is not a self-aggrandizing person. But he is, he just claimed he coined “exploratory programming” FFS. It takes a shocking lack of hubris to announce that you are on the cutting edge of a field where you get to coin terms without doing the trivial amount of searching to verify it first.
- jph00 6y ago
  It's certainly possible. Smalltalk is absolutely an important inspiration for nbdev, and that's a really great reference that you pointed out.
disgruntledphd2 6y ago
I'd probably call that analytics or analysis.

by jph00 6y ago

kowlo 6y ago

How are you sure you didn't just read it somewhere and then forgot? It has been mentioned many times in related literature (even in publication titles) https://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=%22exploratory+programming%22 https://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=%22exploratory+programm... Here's one from 1988 https://dl.acm.org/doi/abs/10.1145/51607.51614 https://dl.acm.org/doi/abs/10.1145/51607.51614 Are these unrelated? Is Nbdev not only a "new programming environment", but also a new concept that needs a new name?

tlarkworthy 6y ago
"In some cases the estimates may be obvious. Perhaps the story is similar to others that have already been completed. In other cases the story may be very difficult to estimate and may require exploratory programming." Kent Beck and Martin Fowler http://index-of.es/Java/Planning%20Extreme%20Programming.pdf http://index-of.es/Java/Planning%20Extreme%20Programming.pdf Its a commonly understood term AFAIK
- kowlo 6y ago
  > Its a commonly understood term AFAIK I agree - it's what made me raise an eyebrow... However, based on their comment above, the lead author of Nbdev believes to have coined the term. My opinion is that due diligence and attribution are important. If I believed I'd coined a new term, I'd check first. Mistakes are easy to make, but when highlighted, perhaps corrections are more appropriate than negotiating with the person highlighting them: From the lead author (jph00): ... If someone else can think of a better term that's never been used before, then I'll happily use that instead.
  - idf00 6y ago
    Why are people nitpicking about this? So the term/phrase he came up with was so descriptive that other people had also thought of the same term previously. He didn't steal anyones research on the topic, or steal code for the project, or deny credit to a developer working on a project. It's 2 simple words that are extremely common in the english language. Of course lots of people have happened to put them together before. This is my second time on hacker news, and I don't think I will be back. Why not offer to help the project, or show support? Why try to find something to fight about? It's just demoralizing to see the lack of kindness from people.
    - kortilla 6y ago
      People that “coin terms” that don’t spend the two seconds required to Google it and then spread around statements like “I coined it” are self-aggrandizing. It’s worth calling them out and discouraging this behavior because it leads to missing entire fields of previous work for both the author and people who build on the work.
      - idf00 6y ago
        If you knew him at all or had bothered to spend the time to look at his work and projects in any level of depth, you would know he is not a self-aggrandizing person. And if the arguement is that this is a gateway action that leads to other bad things, that's not an arguement I put any stock in. It's used a lot in many places and many discussions, but just focus calling out the bad. It isn't his responsibility to ensure that some person building off his work at some point in the future does the appropriate level of research appropriate for their project. Assuming that an action is bad because you think someday down the road it might lead someone else to do something and that that something will be a bad thing is just ridiculous.
        kortilla 6y ago
        > you would know he is not a self-aggrandizing person. But he is, he just claimed he coined “exploratory programming” FFS. It takes a shocking lack of hubris to announce that you are on the cutting edge of a field where you get to coin terms without doing the trivial amount of searching to verify it first.
jph00 6y ago
It's certainly possible. Smalltalk is absolutely an important inspiration for nbdev, and that's a really great reference that you pointed out.

disgruntledphd2 6y ago

I'd probably call that analytics or analysis.