5 ms·

for background, the original author of nbdev has a good post outlining exactly how it relates to jupyter - https://www.fast.ai/2019/12/02/nbdev/ https://www.fa

for background, the original author of nbdev has a good post outlining exactly how it relates to jupyter - https://www.fast.ai/2019/12/02/nbdev/ https://www.fast.ai/2019/12/02/nbdev/

kowlo 6y ago
Strange... "Nbdev is a system for something that we call exploratory programming." but no citation... the phrasing suggests this is something they believe they've come up with a name for?
- tmabraham 6y ago
  The term has a wikipedia page: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exploratory_programming https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exploratory_programming
  - kowlo 6y ago
    I'm aware, what I'm confused about is why they've phrased it as if it's something they call exploratory programming, as if they've coined the term.
    - jph00 6y ago
      I coined the term - and it turns out someone else did too, for something else. So be it. If someone else can think of a better term that's never been used before, then I'll happily use that instead. The earlier usage mentioned in Wikipedia is entirely uncited there however, and seems to have only been used in one academic project AFAICT.
      - kowlo 6y ago
        How are you sure you didn't just read it somewhere and then forgot? It has been mentioned many times in related literature (even in publication titles) https://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=%22exploratory+programming%22 https://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=%22exploratory+programm... Here's one from 1988 https://dl.acm.org/doi/abs/10.1145/51607.51614 https://dl.acm.org/doi/abs/10.1145/51607.51614 Are these unrelated? Is Nbdev not only a "new programming environment", but also a new concept that needs a new name?
        tlarkworthy 6y ago
        "In some cases the estimates may be obvious. Perhaps the story is similar to others that have already been completed. In other cases the story may be very difficult to estimate and may require exploratory programming." Kent Beck and Martin Fowler http://index-of.es/Java/Planning%20Extreme%20Programming.pdf http://index-of.es/Java/Planning%20Extreme%20Programming.pdf Its a commonly understood term AFAIK
        kowlo 6y ago
        > Its a commonly understood term AFAIK I agree - it's what made me raise an eyebrow... However, based on their comment above, the lead author of Nbdev believes to have coined the term. My opinion is that due diligence and attribution are important. If I believed I'd coined a new term, I'd check first. Mistakes are easy to make, but when highlighted, perhaps corrections are more appropriate than negotiating with the person highlighting them: From the lead author (jph00): ... If someone else can think of a better term that's never been used before, then I'll happily use that instead.
        idf00 6y ago
        Why are people nitpicking about this? So the term/phrase he came up with was so descriptive that other people had also thought of the same term previously. He didn't steal anyones research on the topic, or steal code for the project, or deny credit to a developer working on a project. It's 2 simple words that are extremely common in the english language. Of course lots of people have happened to put them together before. This is my second time on hacker news, and I don't think I will be back. Why not offer to help the project, or show support? Why try to find something to fight about? It's just demoralizing to see the lack of kindness from people.
        kortilla 6y ago
        People that “coin terms” that don’t spend the two seconds required to Google it and then spread around statements like “I coined it” are self-aggrandizing. It’s worth calling them out and discouraging this behavior because it leads to missing entire fields of previous work for both the author and people who build on the work.
      - disgruntledphd2 6y ago
        I'd probably call that analytics or analysis.
  - mikewarot 6y ago
    In electronics, we call it Breadboarding, and the results are expected to be temporary by all involved. Breadboarded circuits generally are not stable over time or movement.

for background, the original author of nbdev has a good post outlining exactly how it relates to jupyter - https://www.fast.ai/2019/12/02/nbdev/ https://www.fast.ai/2019/12/02/nbdev/

kowlo 6y ago

Strange... "Nbdev is a system for something that we call exploratory programming." but no citation... the phrasing suggests this is something they believe they've come up with a name for?

tmabraham 6y ago
The term has a wikipedia page: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exploratory_programming https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exploratory_programming
- kowlo 6y ago
  I'm aware, what I'm confused about is why they've phrased it as if it's something they call exploratory programming, as if they've coined the term.
  - jph00 6y ago
    I coined the term - and it turns out someone else did too, for something else. So be it. If someone else can think of a better term that's never been used before, then I'll happily use that instead. The earlier usage mentioned in Wikipedia is entirely uncited there however, and seems to have only been used in one academic project AFAICT.
    - kowlo 6y ago
      How are you sure you didn't just read it somewhere and then forgot? It has been mentioned many times in related literature (even in publication titles) https://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=%22exploratory+programming%22 https://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=%22exploratory+programm... Here's one from 1988 https://dl.acm.org/doi/abs/10.1145/51607.51614 https://dl.acm.org/doi/abs/10.1145/51607.51614 Are these unrelated? Is Nbdev not only a "new programming environment", but also a new concept that needs a new name?
      - tlarkworthy 6y ago
        "In some cases the estimates may be obvious. Perhaps the story is similar to others that have already been completed. In other cases the story may be very difficult to estimate and may require exploratory programming." Kent Beck and Martin Fowler http://index-of.es/Java/Planning%20Extreme%20Programming.pdf http://index-of.es/Java/Planning%20Extreme%20Programming.pdf Its a commonly understood term AFAIK
        kowlo 6y ago
        > Its a commonly understood term AFAIK I agree - it's what made me raise an eyebrow... However, based on their comment above, the lead author of Nbdev believes to have coined the term. My opinion is that due diligence and attribution are important. If I believed I'd coined a new term, I'd check first. Mistakes are easy to make, but when highlighted, perhaps corrections are more appropriate than negotiating with the person highlighting them: From the lead author (jph00): ... If someone else can think of a better term that's never been used before, then I'll happily use that instead.
        idf00 6y ago
        Why are people nitpicking about this? So the term/phrase he came up with was so descriptive that other people had also thought of the same term previously. He didn't steal anyones research on the topic, or steal code for the project, or deny credit to a developer working on a project. It's 2 simple words that are extremely common in the english language. Of course lots of people have happened to put them together before. This is my second time on hacker news, and I don't think I will be back. Why not offer to help the project, or show support? Why try to find something to fight about? It's just demoralizing to see the lack of kindness from people.
        kortilla 6y ago
        People that “coin terms” that don’t spend the two seconds required to Google it and then spread around statements like “I coined it” are self-aggrandizing. It’s worth calling them out and discouraging this behavior because it leads to missing entire fields of previous work for both the author and people who build on the work.
    - disgruntledphd2 6y ago
      I'd probably call that analytics or analysis.
- mikewarot 6y ago
  In electronics, we call it Breadboarding, and the results are expected to be temporary by all involved. Breadboarded circuits generally are not stable over time or movement.