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Why are there so many cats in Istanbul?
- microtherion 6y agoA few years ago, I noticed that Athens also had a large feral cat population, so I'm not sure Islam plays as large a role as suggested.
- baybal2 6y agoBecause people feed those cats, and those cats are having meat to feed more kittens, and less kittens starve?
- carabiner 6y agoCats are good people.
- artiszt 6y agothe better ppl they are, that's for sure
- DoofusOfDeath 6y agoNot everyone shares your sentiment [0]. [0] https://theoatmeal.com/comics/cats_actually_kill https://theoatmeal.com/comics/cats_actually_kill
- ducaale 6y agolol
- alexilliamson 6y agoMore like CATstantinople, hoooo boy.
- leetcrew 6y agoI believe they prefer HISStanbul these days.
- poisonarena 6y agohere come the redditors...
- alexilliamson 6y agoTo be fair, this was an article about cats posted on HN. I do apologize, I just couldn't help myself.
- ogre_codes 6y agoAs a cat person, I want to ask why other cities are so cat deficient. Realistically though, an overpopulation of any domestic/ semi animal, particularly when they are non-native is not great. These cats almost certainly spread out into the surrounding countryside and wreck havoc on native/ natural populations. Cats are great... in moderation and properly spayed so they don't spread.
- throwaway47399 6y agoI'd rather have an overpopulation of cats than rats. Looking at you, New York, London and Paris.
- 1-6 6y agoYou answered your own question. A lot of people spay and neuter.
- ogre_codes 6y agoI thought it was clear with my second sentence. My question was facetious and rhetorical.
- ergocoder 6y agoIn US, any cat that touches any shelter get spayed and neutered. Some shelters are also kill shelter. If the cat doesn't get adopted, it will be put down. Sometimes I wonder if we would accidentally make cats extinct.
- egypturnash 6y agoCats breed fast. Sexual maturity is 6-9 months, pregnancy takes 2-3 months, and a mother cat can go into heat a month after giving birth. Litters are mostly 2-6 kittens, and there is no such thing as "cat menopause" - your ancient housecat well past the end of a wild cat's lifespan can still get pregnant. As long as there's a few breeding pairs out there, they can repopulate quickly. You would have to go to a very deliberate effort to make them extinct. Or accidentally destroy everything they would eat - which, given that they will eat pretty much any animal they can take down, would be a serious global extinction event.
- aj_g 6y agoFunny that this popped up on HN. I lived in Istanbul for a little bit and was perplexed by the number of cats, but for one reason or another it's not something I ever thought of actually Googling. Thanks for sharing!
- legerdemain 6y agoI remember watching Kedi, a feel-good non-fiction film about cats in Istanbul that was popular a few years ago. My impression was less "awww" and more "wow, Istanbul has a massive feral cat problem." I'm not sure having thousands of feral animals fight over your garbage is good for public health or, for that matter, humane toward the animals.
- HarryHirsch 6y agoYou think you have a feral cat problem, but you really have a rodent problem that the cats are keeping in check. Conservationists found that out the hard way when they removed cats from remote islands to boost bird populations. Then the number of rats and mice exploded until there was nothing left.
- legerdemain 6y agoThe solution to rodent problems in cities is sanitation, not feral cats. Example: don't smear buckets of raw fish guts in the streets, as people in Kedi are shown doing. "Until there was nothing left" sounds dramatic. Can you point me to any wildlife conservation campaigns that introduced cats to control other invasive species? All I can think of are the feral cats on Hawaii, that are described as "among the most harmful invasive species globally".[1] [1] https://dlnr.hawaii.gov/hisc/info/invasive-species-profiles/feral-cats/ https://dlnr.hawaii.gov/hisc/info/invasive-species-profiles/...
- HarryHirsch 6y agoIt's probably this one: https://abcnews.go.com/Technology/story?id=6637714&page=1 https://abcnews.go.com/Technology/story?id=6637714&page=1 "But the decision to eradicate the felines from Macquarie island allowed the rabbit population to explode and, in turn, destroy much of its fragile vegetation that birds depend on for cover"
- legerdemain 6y agoThank you! That's a fascinating counterexample. In most places the cats are the invaders that eradicate native bird species. I'm curious why the native fauna of Macquarie was more resilient to cats.
- artiszt 6y agofinally someone dares asking the important question. had hoped for one to be offered in an arte.tv docu the other month .. excellent photography and filming tho.
- andersco 6y agoThe article states that there are 130,000 dogs and 125,000 cats, which sort of begs the question, why is the focus on the number of cats, when there are even more dogs?
- FabHK 6y agoMaybe this is a high cats/dogs ratio compared with other major cities. Clearly, more research is needed: for as many cities as possible, find the ratio, plot it against the prevalence of Islam, compute a coefficient, and test whether one can reject the hypothesis that it's zero.
- artiszt 6y agocats are the ones with character. they decide for themselves. they literally own the space u wrongfully assume to own if there's a cat 'living' with u. a bit like with father and daughter where he is of the false belief to have a say, now and then ..
- HighDrum 6y agoI don't find them bad actually. Maybe we can leave under one roof after-all... my city even builded small houses for cats next to suburbs. So people would know where to go and feed them. which makes everything clearer.
- cwmma 6y agoConsidering how many cats I saw when I was in Greece [0] I think this might be more cultural then religious. 0. https://imgur.com/gallery/LbU7j https://imgur.com/gallery/LbU7j
- notsureaboutpg 6y agoOn what basis can you say it is more cultural than religious? If two places have the same practice with different religions it does not mean the practice is thus cultural and not religious. Both Utah and Saudi Arabia have traditions of polygyny. But this clearly springs from religion. The polygyny mentioned is not cultural. Lack of knowledge about Islam will lead you to the conclusion you came to, but Muslims will know that contact with animals affects ones ritual purity. And ritual purity is important when you have daily rituals. Cats do not affect the purity while other animals do. This is the reason, for Muslims, why cats are common and held in high esteem. There may be many factors into why cats are around but Muslims will tell you it is religious and cite religious doctrine to show that, how will you then determine that, to the contrary, it's actually cultural?
- throwaway47399 6y agoPart of the answer: >Turkey is not unique among predominately Muslim countries for honouring its cats, which are considered ritually clean animals in Islam. Which I can confirm is true in many cities in North Africa. They're efficient and cheap pest control that manages itself with very little input. You could argue that the cats themselves are pests, but at least they're nicer to look at than rodents.
- poulsbohemian 6y agoGiven that a cat's gestation period is only two months and they can become pregnant again immediately... anyplace where there is sufficient food to support ferrel cats, you'll end up with a whole lot of cats quickly. But, the author does make an interesting reflection on the culture of a city whether those cats are treasured or treated as a burden.
- izgzhen 6y agoI wonder if there is an ecosystem-wise balance established in Istanbul even with many cats living freely with plenty food. And if so, I guess there is something unique to it that many other cities can’t replicate in a night (so some control was still needed elsewhere).
- stupendousyappi 6y agoThis question is equivalent to "Why doesn't the Istanbul government spay and neuter stray cats?", a question the article doesn't address. If there really are no systematic efforts to control the stray cat population, I have a hard time believing that nature isn't performing the same function. Cat populations grow explosively unchecked- if this phenomenon has been happening for hundreds of years, there's no way that the cat population hasn't been butting up against various limits by now, with all the suffering that that implies.
- feritkan 6y agoI have been living in Istanbul for the last 5 years (moved from US) and I have seen most of the other cities mentioned...No other city has as many cats as İstanbul - I have seen cats at bank HQs, at large corp office buildings, sleeping on subway turnstiles,at museums, at stadiums - anywhere you were not expecting them to be ,surely a delight for cat lovers. The reason there are more cats is not religion, Turks are cat friendly, nobody bothers cats and most importantly all cats are fed. Adding no neutering/ spaying completes the madness in cat population
- gregorymichael 6y agoHow are you enjoying living in Istanbul? We spent some time there a few years ago and felt like it was the first international city that we would move to (we currently live in Brooklyn).
- feritkan 6y agoTime of our lives(my wife and I) I am in high tech - so work wise not stellar but culture, restaurants, entertainment is great / colorful people around...You need to choose neighborhood well, my advice for American friends is , if you like New York then you will like Istanbul- If you can manage to keep your Brooklyn income I strongly suggest giving Istanbul a chance// and if you are not married (I have been told : ) it is even better
- tboyd47 6y agoDo you work for a local company or remotely? We are thinking of moving there, too!
- feritkan 6y agoI worked for one the largest global companies at both local and remote roles, but they localize pay regardless of you are remote or local resource - you get local pay as long as your your home address is Istanbul. On this regard, smaller companies could be more flexible
- pantelisk 6y agoI do not think religion plays a role at all. Greece is full of kitties too. The climate is nice. They can survive the winter without having to crawl into a steamy sewer like rats. Though many cats sleep under cars (especially if the engine is still warm). Most cities in these areas are not heavy on traffic, the city roads are narrow and designated for slow-driving - giving the animals an opportunity to move around with not much noise and danger. Old people in the neighborhood feed them and play with them. I would say it's as nice for them as it is for the cats (they get to have a hobby, go out etc). People at cafes and restaurants (especially the ones with outdoor seating) might put some food aside. People growing up in such an environment learn to like the cats, and give them some attention or feed them themselves. (I grew up loving stray cats, and animals in general due this culture). Was surprised to see how much having a pet is a "business" in the states (higher rents if you have a pet, mandatory chips, pet salons everywhere, eugenic like focus on perfect looking breeds etc). And the elephant in the room. Careless people adopt them, decide it's too much work and then let them roam free. Or decide that neutering them is immoral or too expensive or something... If you wanna see some more of Instanbul's cats -> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y0dJ4zrTopU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y0dJ4zrTopU (no affiliation)
- SeanLuke 6y ago> I do not think religion plays a role at all. Greece is full of kitties too. I came here just to say that: Athens is absolutely loaded with cats, especially strays. I think this is regional cultural, not religious.
- StavrosK 6y agoDogs too, though I think dogs have a harder time in cities.
- selectodude 6y agoThe dogs do ok in Istanbul. Less so in a lot of other places though. edit: the city of Istanbul has a program where they drive around and neuter and tag stray dogs. it seems to work pretty well. I used to be in istanbul every year and had the same dog friend that lived by my hotel. he was the best. miss him dearly.
- ajarmst 6y agoFollow-up article: why aren't there any songbirds in Istanbul?
- tzs 6y agoIstanbul seems to be doing OK with birds [1] [2]. There are some people that aren't nice to songbirds in Istanbul, though [3]. [1] http://howtoistanbul.com/en/birds-of-istanbul/8560 http://howtoistanbul.com/en/birds-of-istanbul/8560 [2] https://avibase.bsc-eoc.org/checklist.jsp?region=TRmaib&list=howardmoore https://avibase.bsc-eoc.org/checklist.jsp?region=TRmaib&list... [3] https://www.theguardian.com/artanddesign/2016/mar/24/photography-istanbul-bird-cafes-cemre-yesil-maria-sturm-for-birds-sake https://www.theguardian.com/artanddesign/2016/mar/24/photogr...
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- csomar 6y agoI don't remember seeing many cats in Istanbul but sure did see many dogs. And Istanbul dogs are, euh, frighteningly big. Maybe it's a Mediterranean thing? Tunis and all of Tunisia cities have lots of cats. Any restaurant, cafe, or even companies will have cats playing around. There are no health checks or controls, so things are out of controls. Also the cats/dogs seem to mark their territory. It's the same group of cats/dogs at any particular restaurant and they survive on the workers giving them the leftovers. Here is one in a cafe nearby ;) https://imgur.com/a/a4RqkWV https://imgur.com/a/a4RqkWV
- dalys 6y agoAs the article neglects to mention, stray dogs are a huge problem in Turkey. My wife is Turkish and we travel a lot to Turkey. They unfortunately exist in every single place. In Istanbul they are not such a big problem because you have so many other prople around you. But as soon as you you get to other cities it’s less fun. As a person that likes to jog in the morning I had stop and turn around and slowly walk away too many times. Some angry, mentally unstable, dog would block the way. Sometimes they chase you. I have seen other runners being chased and bitten by dogs. Especially in the morning they get aggressive. I have also seen packs of dogs attacking normal dogs in leaches. Of course they also carry rabies. According to my wife stray dogs were not so common when she was young, but the population has exploded since then. She and her mother also dislikes them. It doesn’t help that there is almost no one working on the problem. I know Istanbul has some organisation that will vaccinate and neuter stray dogs. Otherwise locals seems to have some twisted sense of animal wellfare going where they believe putting a domesticated dog on the street is an ok thing to do, since other locals will take care of it. Never mind they get malnourished, get aggressive and are obviously completely unstable mentally. A broken leg, an infected wound? Who cares, as long as they can roam around free and multiply as much as they want. I have no idea how this became the norm but I really hope it will change!
- csomar 6y agoIt's a thing where I live too (Tunisia). After the revolution, the government became loose and dogs multiplied. Where I live, there is a pack of 40-50 in front of the building. They survive on trash and some neighbors feed them regularly, so they are well fed and friendly. Most people here are not married or don't have kids, plus most of them have cars. I would not be comfortable having a kid walking around with these dogs (although they are friendly so far).
- mba_lmh 6y agoThey have great dishes.
- ycombonator 6y agoLucky they are in Istanbul instead of China.
- sewercake 6y agoIt's interesting, many people in this comment section are pointing out other places, like greece, the caspian sea, the black sea, where cats are found all over the urban environment. What all of these places share (including istanbul) is their proximity to water, and presumably, ports! When I was in istanbul, I remember someone saying that the cats, historically, would help tame the massive rat populations that often plague both port cities and the hulls of ships. I don't have a source to back this up, but its some food for thought!
- reducesuffering 6y agoNot exactly. No US cities have the abundance of stray cats roaming around, even though LA, SF, NYC, Boston, etc. are all up against the water and ports. Elsewhere outside the US, Tbilisi, Georgia isn't very close to the sea and yet it's also filled with stray cats and dogs.
- ilaksh 6y agoI think it's partly because they do not collect and euthanize them at volume like they do in many Western countries. And probably also less neutering, at least before.
- mshaler 6y agoLet us note that Henry David Thoreau was wrong about a great many things, but especially on the counting of cats in Zanzibar and therefore Istanbul, a Turkish delight on a moonlit night: "It is not worthwhile to go around the world to count the cats in Zanzibar." I asked my cats, and they agree. Even my dogs agree because the cats do.
- hyperpallium2 6y agoIstanbul's culture traces to the agricultural technology revolution, when cats were an auxilliary technology to grain storage and transport, addressing rats and mice. They also usurped alternative predator, especially snakes. There is an element of thanks-giving and even worship. Cities dating to the industrial technology revolution similarly keep old machines around in their yards and surrounds, with affection and reverence for their blessing. In new cities, dating to the information technology revolution, they bow their shoulders to their screens, genuflecting, and swiping up, down, right, left. I like the old way better.
- herodoturtle 6y agoAwesome comment! :)
- jason_slack 6y agoI watched “Kedi” a few years ago. Now, my 2 and 3 year olds remind me weekly they need to see what the kitties are up to. This is also why we have 9 cats. Go figure. I’m glad my kids respect the cats and let them all integrate into outlives as the cats deem appropriate.
- juskrey 6y agoSimple: When you see too many rats, just stop feeding cats.
- kilroy123 6y agoI'm an American living in Istanbul for the year. It is true, there are soooo many cats here. It's even worse in my neighborhood. I once walked down my small street and counted over 50 cats on the street alone!
- based2 6y agoGood memories with cats in the Princes islands: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Princes%27_Islands https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Princes%27_Islands