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One quick point: Fellows is first and foremost designed for our students. We started by looking at our Labs program, which was 8 weeks long, and thinking about

One quick point: Fellows is first and foremost designed for our students. We started by looking at our Labs program, which was 8 weeks long, and thinking about how we could make it better. Labs is a simulation, and a good one!, but will always be simulated. The incredible value for students of Fellows it that it's a "real world learning experience." We now think the 1-2 punch is Labs + Fellows. > Have you done any legal vetting or anything along those lines? I like the idea, and I think it's worthwhile, but I'm not interested if it means putting the company at risk. Yes, absolutely! We've taken the legal side of this very seriously since we realize it has the potential to be interpreted as "free labor." In general, we do not encourage students to take unpaid internships. And if a student has the opportunity to take a paid position elsewhere, we recommend they do that. As I mentioned in another response, our North Star for this program is an unparalleled learning experience for Lambda graduates. There are a few steps we've taken to ensure that it is a valuable learning opportunity for students: 1. We heavily qualify the companies we allow to host Lambda Fellows and require that they have a dedicated mentor in place, a meaningful project for the student to work on, a functioning team for the student to be a part of, and hold them accountable to provide and foster a positive learning environment. Companies who fail to meet these expectations, at any point, have had their Fellows removed. 2. As part of the qualification process for companies, we require that they have an open role for a junior developer that would be a qualified placement that the Lambda Fellow can apply for at the end of the Fellowship. 3. We remove the interview process for the students participating as Fellows and deploy them straight to the host company. You're exactly right: the law basically asks "who is the primary beneficiary of that person's labor?" This was designed from the ground up as part of the educational journey of Lambda, and we've designed Fellows such that the student is the primary beneficiary of each step of that journey.

lumost 6y ago
I don't think this answered the OP's question. I get that you're arguing that the student is the primary beneficiary of the free labor they are giving to the company - but I'd be suspicious that a court would allow this interpretation. At worst this allows for negative cost labor where an employee pays/borrows money in order to provide value to an employer. To the direct question - do you provide appropriate indemnity clauses protecting employers should the legality of the arrangement be called into question?
- jessmartin 6y ago
  Wasn't trying to dodge the question! I'm not sure, but email me and I'll check with legal: jess.martin@lambdaschool.com
kitsune_ 6y ago
You say: > Yes, absolutely! We've taken the legal side of this very seriously since we realize it has the potential to be interpreted as "free labor Your copy reads: > Add talented software engineers to your team for a 4 week trial at no cost for your company.
- jessmartin 6y ago
  That page is targeted at the value proposition for the company, not the student. There are legit benefits to the company, in addition to the major benefits to the student.
  - light_hue_1 6y ago
    I would urge you to drop this program both for ethical and legal reasons. Unpaid internships are deeply unethical and unjust. Not just because everyone deserves to be paid, but more importantly, because they cause massive social inequality. Students who are well-off can afford to take unpaid internships. They get many opportunities riding on their wealth, resulting in students who are not well-off, who cannot afford to work for free, missing out. Programs like these cause massive social inequality. They are how the old boys network continues to live. Also, you totally need a labor lawyer. That page clearly shows that lambdaschool fails the test for an unpaid internship. Not only are you exposing yourself to a lawsuit, you are exposing anyone who participates in this program too. And this page will be used as an exhibit that the program is not about training, it is about displacing existing work onto students. We all know what you're trying to do. Get experience for you students. As a fellow educator, I appreciate that and also understand how hard it is to arrange. But this is not the way.
cweagans 6y ago
Don't get me wrong: I'm not suggesting that this program (as it's currently structured) wouldn't be beneficial to the student. There's no substitute for real experience working with a real team on real projects with real clients. I appreciate the level of qualification that you're doing -- I think that definitely protects against (at least to some extent) predatory/exploitative behavior and it's great that that process is part of the program from day one. That said: if a company is getting free (or negative cost) labor for real commercial work that they would otherwise have to pay a substantial amount of money for, there is a clear, material benefit to the company. If this program were ever considered in court, I suspect that it would boil down to figuring out what the ratio of benefits is (is it 20% company and 80% student, vice versa, or closer to 50/50?) and that's a really risky proposition to consider. From my standpoint, the thing that would make this program essentially risk-free is a requirement to pay at least the minimum wage for whatever jurisdiction the company is operating in. That may significantly reduce the number of companies that can/will utilize this program, but it sends a very clear message: Lambda grads are worth paying for, even in an apprenticeship role. Another model would be to have the grad work as a contractor for a flat, predetermined fee on a project identified and scoped at the beginning of the engagement. Additionally, rather than selling this as a mentoring/apprenticeship/internship program, you could consider selling it to employers as a _hiring_ program. For instance, something along these lines: * Work with a Lambda grad for 4 weeks * Employer does all of the vetting steps you mentioned before and pays $x/hour * At the end of the 4 weeks, employer is obligated to hire the grad, try a different grad, or close the role req for x days (or something like that -- maybe if n grads don't work out, waive this requirement or something) Structured like that, it changes the _hiring_ process in the same way that Lambda is trying to change the education process. Best case, I'd be looking at $1600 for the cost of acquisition of a new employee. We have a fairly rigorous interview/hiring process. I'm not sure exactly how much it costs, but the amount of time and attention required from various members of the team is certainly above $1600, so this would be a bargain for me.
- jessmartin 6y ago
  This was very helpful, Cameron, thanks!
- dragonwriter 6y ago

lumost 6y ago

I don't think this answered the OP's question. I get that you're arguing that the student is the primary beneficiary of the free labor they are giving to the company - but I'd be suspicious that a court would allow this interpretation. At worst this allows for negative cost labor where an employee pays/borrows money in order to provide value to an employer. To the direct question - do you provide appropriate indemnity clauses protecting employers should the legality of the arrangement be called into question?

jessmartin 6y ago
Wasn't trying to dodge the question! I'm not sure, but email me and I'll check with legal: jess.martin@lambdaschool.com

kitsune_ 6y ago

You say: > Yes, absolutely! We've taken the legal side of this very seriously since we realize it has the potential to be interpreted as "free labor Your copy reads: > Add talented software engineers to your team for a 4 week trial at no cost for your company.

jessmartin 6y ago
That page is targeted at the value proposition for the company, not the student. There are legit benefits to the company, in addition to the major benefits to the student.
- light_hue_1 6y ago
  I would urge you to drop this program both for ethical and legal reasons. Unpaid internships are deeply unethical and unjust. Not just because everyone deserves to be paid, but more importantly, because they cause massive social inequality. Students who are well-off can afford to take unpaid internships. They get many opportunities riding on their wealth, resulting in students who are not well-off, who cannot afford to work for free, missing out. Programs like these cause massive social inequality. They are how the old boys network continues to live. Also, you totally need a labor lawyer. That page clearly shows that lambdaschool fails the test for an unpaid internship. Not only are you exposing yourself to a lawsuit, you are exposing anyone who participates in this program too. And this page will be used as an exhibit that the program is not about training, it is about displacing existing work onto students. We all know what you're trying to do. Get experience for you students. As a fellow educator, I appreciate that and also understand how hard it is to arrange. But this is not the way.

cweagans 6y ago

Don't get me wrong: I'm not suggesting that this program (as it's currently structured) wouldn't be beneficial to the student. There's no substitute for real experience working with a real team on real projects with real clients. I appreciate the level of qualification that you're doing -- I think that definitely protects against (at least to some extent) predatory/exploitative behavior and it's great that that process is part of the program from day one. That said: if a company is getting free (or negative cost) labor for real commercial work that they would otherwise have to pay a substantial amount of money for, there is a clear, material benefit to the company. If this program were ever considered in court, I suspect that it would boil down to figuring out what the ratio of benefits is (is it 20% company and 80% student, vice versa, or closer to 50/50?) and that's a really risky proposition to consider. From my standpoint, the thing that would make this program essentially risk-free is a requirement to pay at least the minimum wage for whatever jurisdiction the company is operating in. That may significantly reduce the number of companies that can/will utilize this program, but it sends a very clear message: Lambda grads are worth paying for, even in an apprenticeship role. Another model would be to have the grad work as a contractor for a flat, predetermined fee on a project identified and scoped at the beginning of the engagement. Additionally, rather than selling this as a mentoring/apprenticeship/internship program, you could consider selling it to employers as a _hiring_ program. For instance, something along these lines: * Work with a Lambda grad for 4 weeks * Employer does all of the vetting steps you mentioned before and pays $x/hour * At the end of the 4 weeks, employer is obligated to hire the grad, try a different grad, or close the role req for x days (or something like that -- maybe if n grads don't work out, waive this requirement or something) Structured like that, it changes the _hiring_ process in the same way that Lambda is trying to change the education process. Best case, I'd be looking at $1600 for the cost of acquisition of a new employee. We have a fairly rigorous interview/hiring process. I'm not sure exactly how much it costs, but the amount of time and attention required from various members of the team is certainly above $1600, so this would be a bargain for me.

jessmartin 6y ago
This was very helpful, Cameron, thanks!
dragonwriter 6y ago