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Blanket statements are easy but reality is much more complex. iSH, code learning apps, Codecademy via the iPad browser, iBooks, Library Genesis for getting any

Blanket statements are easy but reality is much more complex. iSH, code learning apps, Codecademy via the iPad browser, iBooks, Library Genesis for getting any book in existence for free, Duolingo, cloud coding. I could go on... There's many, many ways of learning through these devices.

whywhywhywhy 6y ago
Is anything you listed even remotely on the same level as "assembly language and pascal with s3m libraries to program a game", what does Duolingo have to do with being able to understand and prod the workings of the machine in your hand. Still a locked down black box designed around attention algorithms and I'm getting tired of pretending it's not.
- bradlys 6y ago
  Why is programming or understanding how the device works considered more important than learning another language to speak to other people?
  - sjy 6y ago
    Many HN readers earn a living from programming skills they developed by exploring computers aimlessly as kids in the 1990s and 2000s. I’m a Duolingo addict who has used the app daily for more than three years, so I do think it’s a fun way to build basic language skills. But no matter how much time I spend in the app, I won’t learn how it works or get the ability to change, modify or develop it. The learning experience is stage-managed by a company and funded by ads displayed between the lessons. It is very different to my experience of learning to write HTML and PHP when I was in high school.
    - bradlys 6y ago
      > But no matter how much time I spend in the app, I won’t learn how it works or get the ability to change, modify or develop it. Who cares? Just because you and many others on HN learned some stuff from fiddling with some computers doesn't mean that learning a language is lesser. "Ah, you aren't doing things that I did as a kid that lead to my high income! You're trash, kid! Git gud!"
      - sjy 6y ago
        My point isn’t about coding versus learning languages, it’s about open-ended creative activities versus ad-sponsored iOS games. Don’t get me wrong, I like playing the games too!
- Turing_Machine 6y ago
  > Is anything you listed even remotely on the same level as "assembly language and pascal with s3m libraries to program a game" Wasm and WebGL certainly are.
  - sjy 6y ago
    Has anyone ever learned those languages on an iPad though? Even if you know a few languages already, learning a new one by writing software on a device with a small screen, no keyboard, no filesystem, no native app IDE, no browser debugger, and severely limited multitasking, seems almost impossible to me. If I had an iPad rather than a computer running Windows 95 when I was growing up, I don’t think I’d know how to code today.
- notJim 6y ago
  I agree, unless you're typing raw hex codes into the instruction pipeline, you're not really programming. And truthfully, I'd prefer manipulating gates by hand. Otherwise, how do you know you're really talking to the machine.
  - jholman 6y ago
    I hate high-level amateurs like you, diluting this serious and noble craft with your hex codes. If you're not etching the silicon yourself, it's ephemeral fluff. Get serious.
    - callinOutLiars 6y ago
      Real programmers use butterflies[0]. [0] https://xkcd.com/378/ https://xkcd.com/378/
- DennisAleynikov 6y ago
  as someone who finds the kind of programming possible on iOS extremely primitive, I still find your comment disingenuous. Kids even creating and uploading tiktoks, or messing around with their friends creations in roblox or even trying Swift Playgrounds is miles more useful than... learning pascal and assembly to make the most boring game ever. kids have access to magic these days, while algorithmic abuse is rampant, thats not an iPad's core proposition.
  - imtringued 6y ago
    I started off with an extremely primitive locked down programming environment. It's called lua and I used it to mod games.
NuSkooler 6y ago
> There's many, many ways of learning through these devices. You can artificially lock down the device and expose only such things, but default mode is YouTube and Roblox type stuff.
- notJim 6y ago
  Kids make games in roblox (edited to add: they learn how on YouTube)
  - sudosysgen 6y ago
    IIRC Roblox Studio is only on PC, so their point stands.
- DennisAleynikov 6y ago
  youtube and roblox can both be educational tools
- sergiomattei 6y ago
  YouTube is excellent for learning. Documentaries, tutorials, lectures... Not sure what your point is here.

whywhywhywhy 6y ago

Is anything you listed even remotely on the same level as "assembly language and pascal with s3m libraries to program a game", what does Duolingo have to do with being able to understand and prod the workings of the machine in your hand. Still a locked down black box designed around attention algorithms and I'm getting tired of pretending it's not.

bradlys 6y ago
Why is programming or understanding how the device works considered more important than learning another language to speak to other people?
- sjy 6y ago
  Many HN readers earn a living from programming skills they developed by exploring computers aimlessly as kids in the 1990s and 2000s. I’m a Duolingo addict who has used the app daily for more than three years, so I do think it’s a fun way to build basic language skills. But no matter how much time I spend in the app, I won’t learn how it works or get the ability to change, modify or develop it. The learning experience is stage-managed by a company and funded by ads displayed between the lessons. It is very different to my experience of learning to write HTML and PHP when I was in high school.
  - bradlys 6y ago
    > But no matter how much time I spend in the app, I won’t learn how it works or get the ability to change, modify or develop it. Who cares? Just because you and many others on HN learned some stuff from fiddling with some computers doesn't mean that learning a language is lesser. "Ah, you aren't doing things that I did as a kid that lead to my high income! You're trash, kid! Git gud!"
    - sjy 6y ago
      My point isn’t about coding versus learning languages, it’s about open-ended creative activities versus ad-sponsored iOS games. Don’t get me wrong, I like playing the games too!
Turing_Machine 6y ago
> Is anything you listed even remotely on the same level as "assembly language and pascal with s3m libraries to program a game" Wasm and WebGL certainly are.
- sjy 6y ago
  Has anyone ever learned those languages on an iPad though? Even if you know a few languages already, learning a new one by writing software on a device with a small screen, no keyboard, no filesystem, no native app IDE, no browser debugger, and severely limited multitasking, seems almost impossible to me. If I had an iPad rather than a computer running Windows 95 when I was growing up, I don’t think I’d know how to code today.
notJim 6y ago
I agree, unless you're typing raw hex codes into the instruction pipeline, you're not really programming. And truthfully, I'd prefer manipulating gates by hand. Otherwise, how do you know you're really talking to the machine.
- jholman 6y ago
  I hate high-level amateurs like you, diluting this serious and noble craft with your hex codes. If you're not etching the silicon yourself, it's ephemeral fluff. Get serious.
  - callinOutLiars 6y ago
    Real programmers use butterflies[0]. [0] https://xkcd.com/378/ https://xkcd.com/378/
DennisAleynikov 6y ago
as someone who finds the kind of programming possible on iOS extremely primitive, I still find your comment disingenuous. Kids even creating and uploading tiktoks, or messing around with their friends creations in roblox or even trying Swift Playgrounds is miles more useful than... learning pascal and assembly to make the most boring game ever. kids have access to magic these days, while algorithmic abuse is rampant, thats not an iPad's core proposition.
- imtringued 6y ago
  I started off with an extremely primitive locked down programming environment. It's called lua and I used it to mod games.

NuSkooler 6y ago

> There's many, many ways of learning through these devices. You can artificially lock down the device and expose only such things, but default mode is YouTube and Roblox type stuff.

notJim 6y ago
Kids make games in roblox (edited to add: they learn how on YouTube)
- sudosysgen 6y ago
  IIRC Roblox Studio is only on PC, so their point stands.
DennisAleynikov 6y ago
youtube and roblox can both be educational tools
sergiomattei 6y ago
YouTube is excellent for learning. Documentaries, tutorials, lectures... Not sure what your point is here.