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> Only the first two are affiliate behavior, and they don't apply to every purchase, and you can't opt out. What is and isn't affiliate behaviour isn't importa

> Only the first two are affiliate behavior, and they don't apply to every purchase, and you can't opt out. What is and isn't affiliate behaviour isn't important. They are acting like an affiliate I said. It is close enough. > Right. But that's just facilitating a transaction, which is usually not a 30% cut. Yes it is a 30% cut. We have already established it is on other stores. > Again, standard and reasonable are different things. And again, the problem is you can't choose the type of relationship. You can choose not to do business with Apple. > People get pressured into unreasonable rates all the time... These aren't unreasonable rates though. If they were unreasonable people would not publish there. End of. I don't understand how people can say something is unreasonable when there are lots of people using it and making money just fine. So for a lot of people they obviously think it is reasonable. > Again, standard and reasonable are different things. And again, the problem is you can't choose the type of relationship. You can. You can not deal with the app store. > It's always going to be viable for someone to publish. Even with a 90% fee. But surely we can agree that 90% would not be reasonable, even if it was standard? No we cannot agree. Firstly 90% is not viable to anyone, nobody would agree to that and people wouldn't publish on the app store. So to start your premise is completely absurd. Pretend for a moment Apple did raise it tomorrow to 90% cut to them. The vast majority of would just pull their apps and Apple would have to lower the rate again. Every company chooses 30% because it is what everyone else does because it is more or less fair to both parties. Now if another player releases a new phone with a store and they have a better market rate and a decent market share then Apple will lower their rates (like Nintendo did).

Dylan16807 6y ago
> It is close enough. It's really not. The difference is the part that actually motivates you to pay an affiliate. > We have already established it is on other stores. When you look at other services that are just doing payment/download, it's far cheaper than 30%. > You can choose not to do business with Apple. That doesn't disagree with what I said, which is that you can't choose the type of relationship with Apple. > You can. You can not deal with the app store. "Take it or leave it" is the opposite of choosing the type of relationship. I'm so confused by your response here. > No we cannot agree. Firstly 90% is not viable to anyone, nobody would agree to that and people wouldn't publish on the app store. So to start your premise is completely absurd. It's not absurd. People still made apps when the market was a lot smaller. People make apps for android. If revenue is greater than cost, then apps will get made. And a cut like that would remove a lot of competition, so the actual drop in pay wouldn't be as extreme. But okay, what if I said 75% instead? If you get 3x the market share while getting paid 25% of gross revenue, you actually make more money than if you were paid 70% on 1x market share. So there would absolutely be viable apps for some developers. But at the same time, if Apple took a 75% cut that would be unreasonable. > The vast majority of would just pull their apps and Apple would have to lower the rate again. They wouldn't if Apple was really committed. The app already exists, removing it would mean less money. > Now if another player releases a new phone with a store and they have a better market rate and a decent market share then Apple will lower their rates (like Nintendo did). Even with a better rate, Android's app payment market is smaller. It wouldn't do enough to make the apps there significantly better, and the number of people willing to switch off iphone for the marginal difference wouldn't do anything.
- forest_dweller 6y ago
  > When you look at other services that are just doing payment/download, it's far cheaper than 30%. Except if you look at the link that compares all similar stores. It is around about 30% except for EPIC. EPIC can afford such a low rate because they are flush with cash from Fortnite and Unreal Engine dominates the professional game engine market. EPIC are trying to buy their way into the market, if it works then steam and other game stores will have to lower their rates. > It's not absurd. People still made apps when the market was a lot smaller. People make apps for android. If revenue is greater than cost, then apps will get made. And a cut like that would remove a lot of competition, so the actual drop in pay wouldn't be as extreme. We weren't talking about market. We were talking about the revenue split. It was never 90% rate. Apple has had the 30% rate since 2011. Npbody had a problem with the 30% rate back then. Why is it suddenly such an issue? > But okay, what if I said 75% instead? If you get 3x the market share while getting paid 25% of gross revenue, you actually make more money than if you were paid 70% on 1x market share. So there would absolutely be viable apps for some developers. But at the same time, if Apple took a 75% cut that would be unreasonable. If people were happy with the arrangement then it is fine. So yes. However nobody would release anything to the app store back in 2011 if it was that high (70% to apple). > They wouldn't if Apple was really committed. The app already exists, removing it would mean less money. If everyone did it all at the same time as a protest. Apple would have to respond and everyone certainly would. > Even with a better rate, Android's app payment market is smaller. It wouldn't do enough to make the apps there significantly better, and the number of people willing to switch off iphone for the marginal difference wouldn't do anything. So you are saying paying the 30% on the App store is worth it as you get a larger paying market. Which is what makes the 30% reasonable because it is worth it.
  - Dylan16807 6y ago
    > Except if you look at the link that compares all similar stores. It is around about 30% except for EPIC. Your list is companies being paid an affiliate rate. If I start linking companies that don't do affiliate stuff, they charge a lot less. Which is to say that 30% could be a reasonable amount if you had any choice in the matter of what services you want to purchase from apple. > It was never 90% rate. Apple has had the 30% rate since 2011. All that matters is revenue vs. cost. Apple's app store brings in about 80 billion a year right now. In 2013 it was 10 billion. People made apps in 2013, even though 70% of 10 billion is less than 10% of 80 billion. They'd make apps for 10% of 80 billion and they'd definitely make apps for 25% of 80 billion. > If everyone did it all at the same time as a protest. Apple would have to respond and everyone certainly would. Everyone standing up and refusing those billions of dollars in solidarity is more outlandish than anything I've said. > So you are saying paying the 30% on the App store is worth it as you get a larger paying market. Which is what makes the 30% reasonable because it is worth it. It's much easier for a fee to be "worth it" than to be "reasonable". If an airline started charging a fee of $5 for "Breathable air or whatever, screw you.", it would still be worth buying a ticket, but the fee would not be reasonable.

Dylan16807 6y ago

> It is close enough. It's really not. The difference is the part that actually motivates you to pay an affiliate. > We have already established it is on other stores. When you look at other services that are just doing payment/download, it's far cheaper than 30%. > You can choose not to do business with Apple. That doesn't disagree with what I said, which is that you can't choose the type of relationship with Apple. > You can. You can not deal with the app store. "Take it or leave it" is the opposite of choosing the type of relationship. I'm so confused by your response here. > No we cannot agree. Firstly 90% is not viable to anyone, nobody would agree to that and people wouldn't publish on the app store. So to start your premise is completely absurd. It's not absurd. People still made apps when the market was a lot smaller. People make apps for android. If revenue is greater than cost, then apps will get made. And a cut like that would remove a lot of competition, so the actual drop in pay wouldn't be as extreme. But okay, what if I said 75% instead? If you get 3x the market share while getting paid 25% of gross revenue, you actually make more money than if you were paid 70% on 1x market share. So there would absolutely be viable apps for some developers. But at the same time, if Apple took a 75% cut that would be unreasonable. > The vast majority of would just pull their apps and Apple would have to lower the rate again. They wouldn't if Apple was really committed. The app already exists, removing it would mean less money. > Now if another player releases a new phone with a store and they have a better market rate and a decent market share then Apple will lower their rates (like Nintendo did). Even with a better rate, Android's app payment market is smaller. It wouldn't do enough to make the apps there significantly better, and the number of people willing to switch off iphone for the marginal difference wouldn't do anything.

forest_dweller 6y ago
> When you look at other services that are just doing payment/download, it's far cheaper than 30%. Except if you look at the link that compares all similar stores. It is around about 30% except for EPIC. EPIC can afford such a low rate because they are flush with cash from Fortnite and Unreal Engine dominates the professional game engine market. EPIC are trying to buy their way into the market, if it works then steam and other game stores will have to lower their rates. > It's not absurd. People still made apps when the market was a lot smaller. People make apps for android. If revenue is greater than cost, then apps will get made. And a cut like that would remove a lot of competition, so the actual drop in pay wouldn't be as extreme. We weren't talking about market. We were talking about the revenue split. It was never 90% rate. Apple has had the 30% rate since 2011. Npbody had a problem with the 30% rate back then. Why is it suddenly such an issue? > But okay, what if I said 75% instead? If you get 3x the market share while getting paid 25% of gross revenue, you actually make more money than if you were paid 70% on 1x market share. So there would absolutely be viable apps for some developers. But at the same time, if Apple took a 75% cut that would be unreasonable. If people were happy with the arrangement then it is fine. So yes. However nobody would release anything to the app store back in 2011 if it was that high (70% to apple). > They wouldn't if Apple was really committed. The app already exists, removing it would mean less money. If everyone did it all at the same time as a protest. Apple would have to respond and everyone certainly would. > Even with a better rate, Android's app payment market is smaller. It wouldn't do enough to make the apps there significantly better, and the number of people willing to switch off iphone for the marginal difference wouldn't do anything. So you are saying paying the 30% on the App store is worth it as you get a larger paying market. Which is what makes the 30% reasonable because it is worth it.
- Dylan16807 6y ago
  > Except if you look at the link that compares all similar stores. It is around about 30% except for EPIC. Your list is companies being paid an affiliate rate. If I start linking companies that don't do affiliate stuff, they charge a lot less. Which is to say that 30% could be a reasonable amount if you had any choice in the matter of what services you want to purchase from apple. > It was never 90% rate. Apple has had the 30% rate since 2011. All that matters is revenue vs. cost. Apple's app store brings in about 80 billion a year right now. In 2013 it was 10 billion. People made apps in 2013, even though 70% of 10 billion is less than 10% of 80 billion. They'd make apps for 10% of 80 billion and they'd definitely make apps for 25% of 80 billion. > If everyone did it all at the same time as a protest. Apple would have to respond and everyone certainly would. Everyone standing up and refusing those billions of dollars in solidarity is more outlandish than anything I've said. > So you are saying paying the 30% on the App store is worth it as you get a larger paying market. Which is what makes the 30% reasonable because it is worth it. It's much easier for a fee to be "worth it" than to be "reasonable". If an airline started charging a fee of $5 for "Breathable air or whatever, screw you.", it would still be worth buying a ticket, but the fee would not be reasonable.