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>Someone I know once got Opioids to take home after a hospital visit, she said she didn't want them, they urged her to take them anyway. Turns out the hospital

>Someone I know once got Opioids to take home after a hospital visit, she said she didn't want them, they urged her to take them anyway. Turns out the hospital was sponsored by the producer of the pills. > This is not just over-prescribing, this is intentionally creating addicts and should be criminalized asap. I'll devils advocate. But only barely. So, lets say your friend didn't take them, went home, and day 2 something gets way more sore. If she tried to go back to the hospital to tell them, there is a possibility she gets the wrong doctor, gets a note on her file as 'seeking', and then is up a creek without a paddle. This doesn't take away from the issues with overprescription and marketing. But speaking as someone who had to learn about some of this, the hospital did the shitty but correct thing Source: because of the sheer -volume- of ADD meds I have to take and my aspergers, I got a good course from my doc on understanding how not to accidentally look like a seeker

ReactiveJelly 6y ago
Are you and GP talking about "take" as in "take the prescription, and fill it if you need to", or "fill the prescription", or "swallow the pills"?
thinkingemote 6y ago
What is seeking? Is it trying to get more pain meds to primarily fuel addiction/ selling? Or is it seeking attention and so can be ignored? Would they be a seeker if they took home the meds and not actually take them? The drs would then think "why more pain med, they are already on some?" or of they didn't accept and take home the meds from the drs? So then the drs would think when they return "they are here asking for more help when they rejected the help we gave them before, are they seeking attention?" Perhaps it means something else?
- csharptwdec19 6y ago
  'Seeking' in this case is trying to get pain meds. > Would they be a seeker if they took home the meds and not actually take them? The drs would then think "why more pain med, they are already on some?" No, that's not seeker behavior. An 'extreme' example of seeker behavior would be to take the pills home, and try to come up with the best excuse possible to have 'lost' them. > or of they didn't accept and take home the meds from the drs? This is the scenario I'm talking about more. The problem is, if the patient comes back, depending on where the patient went, they might not get the same doctor as before (Thinking scenarios like urgent Care, ER, etc). And when you are in a lot of pain, you might not always think/act rationally. Ironically your desire to deal with immediate severe pain could in fact look from the outside as someone going through withdrawls.
  - thinkingemote 6y ago
    Ahh I see! Thanks for the clarification.
- salawat 6y ago
  A seeker is someone without a legitimate reason or medical history nevertheless trying to get their hands on prescriptions for controlled substances. It's annoying as hell, because if you make the unfortunate mistake of associating with an onverly nervous doctor and you're on a controlled substance, it can lead to a life ruining adjustment of your dosage. (Happened to me right after a job loss.) Showing up with a 20 odd year file of history of successful treatment history on something helps, but you still have to be hyper vigilant about finding a prescriber willing to work with you without being flaky. Yoy can't even think of moving or long term visitation somewhere unless you're made of enough money to do some recon work ahead of time to find a doc at a new location, or return wherever your old one is for the interim to top up fill your prescriptions. As a person with a valid medical justification, I'm basically already in a gilded prison created by DEA where I have to essentially mother-may-I either the insurance company or physician anytime I want or need to relocate for more than 30 days. And God help you with tolerance built up. Then you're adding a new monthly family member unless you figure out how to nutritionally supplement for your particular body chem to get around it. I will shed no tears over massive fefunding of DEA or restriction of their Draconian scope, but I have the feeling I'll never see it, because there is too much self-destructive potential and black market incentuve for illegal trade to ever become small enough without an organization putting pressure on it. That may be some level of Stockholm Syndrome talking though, as I'm not sure I don't just tell myself that to keep myself from wasting my time shouting into the wind.
  - thinkingemote 6y ago
    Yes I see how getting that label can be life ruining! Thanks for clarifying. Are doctors by default nervous about this? Can't they share your file between them? (I'm in Europe, so my experience is different, sorry I don't know these basics). Is the fear from doctors and the draconian DEA's scope left over from the "War on Drugs"?
    - salawat 6y ago
      Yes, a big portion of Electronic Healthcare Records is getting all relevant records to be capable of following you everywhere digitally. The paper equivalent before ACA was a foot to a foot and a half stack of papers you picked up from your old physician. The fear comes from DEA as they track metrics from pharmacies, and are tge source of all prescription pads for controlled substances. If you end up looking suspicious enough to look into, you could very quickly find yourself in very hot water. You could lose access to the privilege to write controlled substance prescriptions, which means lost patients, have your license revoked, or any other unpleasant outcome. You have to have a good relationship with your physician, because if for whatever reason the start feeling overly exposed professionally, your adverse health outcome is less severe to them than possible investigation by authorities or jeopardization of their ability to see patients. The sad thing is, I can't even really blame them. It's 100% reasonable from their point of view, and from an outsider's, but as a patient trying to navigate your own physiology in a way that doesn't end in catastrophic consequences for yourself, those you know and love, and those depending on you to play your part in the grand scheme of things, it sure does feel like everyone is a-okay letting you take the fall for the sake of the perverse incentives created by the regulatory environment.
- adolph 6y ago
  The official medical-system approved thought process, which Greene & Chambers are defending in this paper, is “Since he is displaying signs of drug-seeking behavior, he must be an addict trying to con you into giving him his next fix.” https://slatestarcodex.com/2019/09/16/against-against-pseudoaddiction/ https://slatestarcodex.com/2019/09/16/against-against-pseudo...
dqv 6y ago
Fun story about seeking actually. A dentist prescribed me opiates (two different kinds but I can't remember what) for wisdom tooth removal. I filled the prescription in case I needed them but ibuprofen ended up being fine. Later my psychiatrist retired so I needed to find a new one. The new psychiatrist interrogated me about my use of opiates. He asked if I had taken opiates before. I answered no because I hadn't. This was his gleeful gotcha moment where he pulls up my prescription history to find the opiate prescription and accuse me of lying about drug abuse. It was a university health system and he was pushing a new medication on me. That same day I found out the manufacturer of the drug he wanted to put me on had made a $10 million donation to the university. I guess he was going to try to get me to feel like a drug abuser and like I have no choice but to take this new medication? Anyway, he was successful at making me feel like I was a drug abuser so I just left and stopped taking psychiatric medications altogether. I probably didn't need them. Also you can be labeled a seeker even if you fill the prescription instead of going back to get it.
- formerly_proven 6y ago
  Why do you need opiates of all things to deal with tooth removal?!
  - gvhst 6y ago
    its a procedure with a painful recovery?
  - mkoryak 6y ago
    because it hurts.
  - crankyoldcrank 6y ago
    Seems strange to me too, when I had my wisdom teeth out they just gave me ketamine.
  - bb611 6y ago
    This has been common in the US for decades now, I was prescribed them as a minor for my wisdom tooth removal. I was also fine with ibuprofen. I'm assuming there were significant kickbacks to oral surgeons from the opioid sales people.

ReactiveJelly 6y ago

Are you and GP talking about "take" as in "take the prescription, and fill it if you need to", or "fill the prescription", or "swallow the pills"?

thinkingemote 6y ago

What is seeking? Is it trying to get more pain meds to primarily fuel addiction/ selling? Or is it seeking attention and so can be ignored? Would they be a seeker if they took home the meds and not actually take them? The drs would then think "why more pain med, they are already on some?" or of they didn't accept and take home the meds from the drs? So then the drs would think when they return "they are here asking for more help when they rejected the help we gave them before, are they seeking attention?" Perhaps it means something else?

csharptwdec19 6y ago
'Seeking' in this case is trying to get pain meds. > Would they be a seeker if they took home the meds and not actually take them? The drs would then think "why more pain med, they are already on some?" No, that's not seeker behavior. An 'extreme' example of seeker behavior would be to take the pills home, and try to come up with the best excuse possible to have 'lost' them. > or of they didn't accept and take home the meds from the drs? This is the scenario I'm talking about more. The problem is, if the patient comes back, depending on where the patient went, they might not get the same doctor as before (Thinking scenarios like urgent Care, ER, etc). And when you are in a lot of pain, you might not always think/act rationally. Ironically your desire to deal with immediate severe pain could in fact look from the outside as someone going through withdrawls.
- thinkingemote 6y ago
  Ahh I see! Thanks for the clarification.
salawat 6y ago
A seeker is someone without a legitimate reason or medical history nevertheless trying to get their hands on prescriptions for controlled substances. It's annoying as hell, because if you make the unfortunate mistake of associating with an onverly nervous doctor and you're on a controlled substance, it can lead to a life ruining adjustment of your dosage. (Happened to me right after a job loss.) Showing up with a 20 odd year file of history of successful treatment history on something helps, but you still have to be hyper vigilant about finding a prescriber willing to work with you without being flaky. Yoy can't even think of moving or long term visitation somewhere unless you're made of enough money to do some recon work ahead of time to find a doc at a new location, or return wherever your old one is for the interim to top up fill your prescriptions. As a person with a valid medical justification, I'm basically already in a gilded prison created by DEA where I have to essentially mother-may-I either the insurance company or physician anytime I want or need to relocate for more than 30 days. And God help you with tolerance built up. Then you're adding a new monthly family member unless you figure out how to nutritionally supplement for your particular body chem to get around it. I will shed no tears over massive fefunding of DEA or restriction of their Draconian scope, but I have the feeling I'll never see it, because there is too much self-destructive potential and black market incentuve for illegal trade to ever become small enough without an organization putting pressure on it. That may be some level of Stockholm Syndrome talking though, as I'm not sure I don't just tell myself that to keep myself from wasting my time shouting into the wind.
- thinkingemote 6y ago
  Yes I see how getting that label can be life ruining! Thanks for clarifying. Are doctors by default nervous about this? Can't they share your file between them? (I'm in Europe, so my experience is different, sorry I don't know these basics). Is the fear from doctors and the draconian DEA's scope left over from the "War on Drugs"?
  - salawat 6y ago
    Yes, a big portion of Electronic Healthcare Records is getting all relevant records to be capable of following you everywhere digitally. The paper equivalent before ACA was a foot to a foot and a half stack of papers you picked up from your old physician. The fear comes from DEA as they track metrics from pharmacies, and are tge source of all prescription pads for controlled substances. If you end up looking suspicious enough to look into, you could very quickly find yourself in very hot water. You could lose access to the privilege to write controlled substance prescriptions, which means lost patients, have your license revoked, or any other unpleasant outcome. You have to have a good relationship with your physician, because if for whatever reason the start feeling overly exposed professionally, your adverse health outcome is less severe to them than possible investigation by authorities or jeopardization of their ability to see patients. The sad thing is, I can't even really blame them. It's 100% reasonable from their point of view, and from an outsider's, but as a patient trying to navigate your own physiology in a way that doesn't end in catastrophic consequences for yourself, those you know and love, and those depending on you to play your part in the grand scheme of things, it sure does feel like everyone is a-okay letting you take the fall for the sake of the perverse incentives created by the regulatory environment.
adolph 6y ago
The official medical-system approved thought process, which Greene & Chambers are defending in this paper, is “Since he is displaying signs of drug-seeking behavior, he must be an addict trying to con you into giving him his next fix.” https://slatestarcodex.com/2019/09/16/against-against-pseudoaddiction/ https://slatestarcodex.com/2019/09/16/against-against-pseudo...

dqv 6y ago

Fun story about seeking actually. A dentist prescribed me opiates (two different kinds but I can't remember what) for wisdom tooth removal. I filled the prescription in case I needed them but ibuprofen ended up being fine. Later my psychiatrist retired so I needed to find a new one. The new psychiatrist interrogated me about my use of opiates. He asked if I had taken opiates before. I answered no because I hadn't. This was his gleeful gotcha moment where he pulls up my prescription history to find the opiate prescription and accuse me of lying about drug abuse. It was a university health system and he was pushing a new medication on me. That same day I found out the manufacturer of the drug he wanted to put me on had made a $10 million donation to the university. I guess he was going to try to get me to feel like a drug abuser and like I have no choice but to take this new medication? Anyway, he was successful at making me feel like I was a drug abuser so I just left and stopped taking psychiatric medications altogether. I probably didn't need them. Also you can be labeled a seeker even if you fill the prescription instead of going back to get it.

formerly_proven 6y ago
Why do you need opiates of all things to deal with tooth removal?!
- gvhst 6y ago
  its a procedure with a painful recovery?
- mkoryak 6y ago
  because it hurts.
- crankyoldcrank 6y ago
  Seems strange to me too, when I had my wisdom teeth out they just gave me ketamine.
- bb611 6y ago
  This has been common in the US for decades now, I was prescribed them as a minor for my wisdom tooth removal. I was also fine with ibuprofen. I'm assuming there were significant kickbacks to oral surgeons from the opioid sales people.