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This isn’t a problem exclusive to Apple anymore. Google has implemented some draconian nonsense this year to the point where I ended up distributing my Android

by cwhiz 6y ago

This isn’t a problem exclusive to Apple anymore. Google has implemented some draconian nonsense this year to the point where I ended up distributing my Android app as a PWA. I had no problems with Apple. Apple gets all the headlines, and certainly gets more chatter on HN, but they aren’t alone in this bullshit. As an example... Fortnite was also banned by Google.

pier25 6y ago
Fortnite was banned from the Play store, not Android.
Deukhoofd 6y ago
For Android there are at the very least alternatives for app distribution.
- cwhiz 6y ago
  Alternatives technically exist, but they suck. We tried some alternatives but PWA was by far the only one that got any traction.
- sercand 6y ago
  For a B2C app, if we are not on the default distribution platform of the system, our user acquisition costs would be skyrocketed.
andybak 6y ago
> Fortnite was also banned by Google. I think the main reason this wasn't as newsworthy is that sideloading it was trivial for Android users. Untick a warning and install it yourself.
- cwhiz 6y ago
  Trivial for you, a reader on HN. Not trivial, and potentially unsafe, for my grandmother.
  - andybak 6y ago
    Considering we're talking about Fortnite I would suggest that it's trivial for anyone who can figure out how to play Fortnite.
    - xuki 6y ago
      If it was trivial they would not bring Fortnite to Play Store at all, but they did.
      - Dylan16807 6y ago
        Being trivial in difficulty doesn't ensure that people want to do it, especially for a free app. If you want a better experiment, have a play version with normal fees, and a sideload version where v-bucks are cheaper.
        xuki 6y ago
        Previous they did not have a Play Store version at all. If someone wants to play, they HAD to sideload. And people still don't do that.
      - andybak 6y ago
        > If it was trivial they would not bring Fortnite to Play Store at all, but they did. I think you're taking "trivial" to mean "completely frictionless with no downsides" which is not the sense in which I intended it to be taken. To quote myself above: > It's not a contradiction to say both "sideloading makes banning from the the Play Store less of an issue" and "it's better to be on the Play Store".
  - toyg 6y ago
    If there is a niche for “appstore for grannies”, a free market will eventually get it. Security is a non-issue. If Apple were really worried about that, they would allow appstores in a regulated form with certain security rules.
- dan1234 6y ago
  Obviously not that trivial considering Epic added Fortnite back to the Playstore after seemingly giving up on getting people to side load it. https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2020/apr/22/fortnite-owner-gives-up-battle-against-google-play-store https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2020/apr/22/fortnite-...
  - andybak 6y ago
    It's not a contradiction to say both "sideloading makes banning from the the Play Store less of an issue" and "it's better to be on the Play Store".
emsy 6y ago
I agree, but if we’re being honest, iOS is probably the prioritized platform for developers of apps like Hey that are commercial and used for professional work. Also, Apple doesn’t allow sideloading in the way Android does and PWAs are not as powerful because Apple is years behind with modern web standards.
coder543 6y ago
I really, really wish that Apple would support push notifications for PWAs that have been added to the home screen. Without push notifications, PWAs are not really viable and Apple knows it. Apple wants developers to use the App Store and be subject to their fees and review process. At least Google supports push notifications for PWAs, making them a legitimate alternative on Android.
- leadingthenet 6y ago
  > Apple wants developers to use the App Store and be subject to their fees and review process. As do I, an end-user of Apple's platforms.
  - coder543 6y ago
    You’re welcome to use App Store apps... I don’t see the problem. Safari PWAs protect your privacy better than native apps, because Safari trusts no one. The App Store review process is trying to find a malicious needle in a haystack because iOS by default trusts native apps more than it should, due to the existence of that nebulous review process. Apple is slowly locking down native apps with each successive iOS version... but PWAs have always been extremely private, and they're still the gold standard as far as I've seen. PWAs are actually completely isolated from each other and from the rest of Safari, so there is no cross-contamination for tracking purposes. If you don’t want more choice and more privacy... that’s up to you. I really don’t know what to tell you. PWAs aren't the "wild west" that sideloading apps would be, yet you're trying to use the classic anti-sideloading argument against PWAs, and that argument simply doesn't work here. Apple has supported PWAs since before there was even an Apple App Store for native apps! PWAs already exist, and PWAs are already extremely private. Apple just needs to give PWAs push notification support. Users would still have complete control over notifications, just like any native app. Apple heavily pushes native apps because of the profit they get from it, not because of concerns about user privacy. They have already built Safari to protect your privacy on the open web.
    - Spivak 6y ago
      I'm not welcome to buy your app on the App Store though. This seems to be the big disconnect about alternative app stores or distribution methods. It doesn't enable user choice unless every app is available on every store. It enables publisher choice and creates this loop where publishers who have a customer bases just move to the store with the fewest restrictions and fees. It's a race to the bottom where the user loses.

by cwhiz 6y ago

pier25 6y ago

Fortnite was banned from the Play store, not Android.

Deukhoofd 6y ago

For Android there are at the very least alternatives for app distribution.

cwhiz 6y ago
Alternatives technically exist, but they suck. We tried some alternatives but PWA was by far the only one that got any traction.
sercand 6y ago
For a B2C app, if we are not on the default distribution platform of the system, our user acquisition costs would be skyrocketed.

andybak 6y ago

> Fortnite was also banned by Google. I think the main reason this wasn't as newsworthy is that sideloading it was trivial for Android users. Untick a warning and install it yourself.

cwhiz 6y ago
Trivial for you, a reader on HN. Not trivial, and potentially unsafe, for my grandmother.
- andybak 6y ago
  Considering we're talking about Fortnite I would suggest that it's trivial for anyone who can figure out how to play Fortnite.
  - xuki 6y ago
    If it was trivial they would not bring Fortnite to Play Store at all, but they did.
    - Dylan16807 6y ago
      Being trivial in difficulty doesn't ensure that people want to do it, especially for a free app. If you want a better experiment, have a play version with normal fees, and a sideload version where v-bucks are cheaper.
      - xuki 6y ago
        Previous they did not have a Play Store version at all. If someone wants to play, they HAD to sideload. And people still don't do that.
    - andybak 6y ago
      > If it was trivial they would not bring Fortnite to Play Store at all, but they did. I think you're taking "trivial" to mean "completely frictionless with no downsides" which is not the sense in which I intended it to be taken. To quote myself above: > It's not a contradiction to say both "sideloading makes banning from the the Play Store less of an issue" and "it's better to be on the Play Store".
- toyg 6y ago
  If there is a niche for “appstore for grannies”, a free market will eventually get it. Security is a non-issue. If Apple were really worried about that, they would allow appstores in a regulated form with certain security rules.
dan1234 6y ago
Obviously not that trivial considering Epic added Fortnite back to the Playstore after seemingly giving up on getting people to side load it. https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2020/apr/22/fortnite-owner-gives-up-battle-against-google-play-store https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2020/apr/22/fortnite-...
- andybak 6y ago
  It's not a contradiction to say both "sideloading makes banning from the the Play Store less of an issue" and "it's better to be on the Play Store".

emsy 6y ago

I agree, but if we’re being honest, iOS is probably the prioritized platform for developers of apps like Hey that are commercial and used for professional work. Also, Apple doesn’t allow sideloading in the way Android does and PWAs are not as powerful because Apple is years behind with modern web standards.

coder543 6y ago

I really, really wish that Apple would support push notifications for PWAs that have been added to the home screen. Without push notifications, PWAs are not really viable and Apple knows it. Apple wants developers to use the App Store and be subject to their fees and review process. At least Google supports push notifications for PWAs, making them a legitimate alternative on Android.

leadingthenet 6y ago
> Apple wants developers to use the App Store and be subject to their fees and review process. As do I, an end-user of Apple's platforms.
- coder543 6y ago
  You’re welcome to use App Store apps... I don’t see the problem. Safari PWAs protect your privacy better than native apps, because Safari trusts no one. The App Store review process is trying to find a malicious needle in a haystack because iOS by default trusts native apps more than it should, due to the existence of that nebulous review process. Apple is slowly locking down native apps with each successive iOS version... but PWAs have always been extremely private, and they're still the gold standard as far as I've seen. PWAs are actually completely isolated from each other and from the rest of Safari, so there is no cross-contamination for tracking purposes. If you don’t want more choice and more privacy... that’s up to you. I really don’t know what to tell you. PWAs aren't the "wild west" that sideloading apps would be, yet you're trying to use the classic anti-sideloading argument against PWAs, and that argument simply doesn't work here. Apple has supported PWAs since before there was even an Apple App Store for native apps! PWAs already exist, and PWAs are already extremely private. Apple just needs to give PWAs push notification support. Users would still have complete control over notifications, just like any native app. Apple heavily pushes native apps because of the profit they get from it, not because of concerns about user privacy. They have already built Safari to protect your privacy on the open web.
  - Spivak 6y ago
    I'm not welcome to buy your app on the App Store though. This seems to be the big disconnect about alternative app stores or distribution methods. It doesn't enable user choice unless every app is available on every store. It enables publisher choice and creates this loop where publishers who have a customer bases just move to the store with the fewest restrictions and fees. It's a race to the bottom where the user loses.