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> I applied to 250+ positions That sounds wrong. It's common, but it still sounds wrong to me. When I look for new jobs, I find a couple of companies (3-4) th

> I applied to 250+ positions That sounds wrong. It's common, but it still sounds wrong to me. When I look for new jobs, I find a couple of companies (3-4) that match with what I'm looking for exactly, read up on the companies, tell them explicitly how I fit into what they need and write them personally. I have a 100% success rate when it comes to interviews, and most of the time I get a offer, but drop out when my counter-offer is too high. On the other side of the fence (as someone who does hiring), if the application looks like something that can be easily copy-pasted and the applicant has no idea about the company itself or tried the product when I follow up, then the candidate very quickly goes to the bottom of the list. Instead of focusing on useless parameters like "CS degree, top-branded college" and so on, try to focus on writing high quality applications for a few selected companies you know you can help. I'm sure your success rate will improve then.

benjaminsuch 6y ago
Not sure why he is getting downvoted, but I agree. I did the same, without having a degree. Telling companies why you fit and why they should hire you has a huge effect, especially if you compete with people who come from a university with a degree in their pocket. Explaining a company why you are a great fit and directly write the responsible person in HR shows, that you: 1. Did not blindly sent out hundreds of applications 2. Gathered information about what the company does and evaluate your fit in consideration of your skillset 3. Contact the right person The 2. point is the most important one. Now, where I am in the position of hiring people, I would gladly take someone who tells me, thoughtful reasons of why we should hire him. But also don't underestimate the 3. point. Don't message the head of HR or similar persons. Instead write the people who will potentially be your lead. But it also depends where you apply. A big corporation? A startup? Government? Something else? The parent comment is correct regardless: Target-focus
soneca 6y ago
”I’m sure your success rate will improve then” I think you are wrong. I don’t have a CS degree, I don’t have top brand college or employer. You also assume wrong that I didn’t dedicated myself to apply to specific jobs where I was a very good fit. I did that. And it didn’t got me offers. If you tell me more about your profile, I am sure I can pinpoint why you get 100% success rate and I don’t. I am pretty sure it is not for the reasons you mentioned.
- comprev 6y ago
  Your comments echo what many who are currently employed say. When the shoe is on the other foot though, and unemployed, you can almost guarantee they will have applied to 100+ roles!
  - Balgair 6y ago
    Oh man, it's in the thousands every time I apply. I used to keep a spreadsheet of it, but that just got depressing. Job searches are quite painful. (Note that I'm in biotech and real engineering, not SW)
    - maerF0x0 6y ago
      >real engineering, <fire emoji>. Some schools have tried to make Software Engineering actual engineering eg: https://www.apega.ca/apply/membership/exams/technical/software-engineering https://www.apega.ca/apply/membership/exams/technical/softwa...
- capableweb 6y ago
  I don't have any CS degree, nor studied at any college, nor worked at any famous employer neither. So probably irrelevant. I sure knows that when I'm doing the hiring, I rarely if ever read what colleges or what previous companies the candidate worked on. All that matters is what their experience is, what they learned so far, what they tell me they wanna do in the future and how they are as a person. > You also assume wrong that I didn’t dedicated myself to apply to specific jobs Yeah, that's my fault, sorry about that. It's hard for me to imagine how you can have time to send out 250+ applications and still have a dedicated cover letter and well-researched application for each one of them. While I don't know how the 250+ companies you've applied to are thinking, I can share how I think, when trying to hire someone for a position. And from your advice, only "good public sample of your code" and "clear explanations and thought process" would be something that I would care about. The rest of your advice are not only not relevant, but some are even outright harmful. Good writing absolutely helps someone (in my eyes) to be more fitting for any type of position. My advice to job seekers would also be to look for advice regarding getting hired by either people who have been hired, consistently so, or by the people who are doing the hiring. While it could be helpful, chances are that people who haven't got a high success rate at getting hired, aren't able to give you good advice.
sdoering 6y ago
He might be right, that a top brand college (and other stuff) will help getting past the HR filter. But I do not agree that this is the only thing. I agree with you, that very specifically targeted and created applications will get a response rate better by at least a factor of ten. I am often on the other side. Reading applications and deciding whom to invite to an interview. As Inteverviews take time for at least me and 3 other colleagues I filter very strongly. For one hour of interview the amount of time it takes (preparation, discussion afterwards, and so on) can take up to 1 - 1.5 person days. As I am working for an agency this means 1.5 days me and my colleagues can't earn money for the company by working productively for our clients (even our managers work hands on on client projects at least part of their time). So creating a well thought out application, one that is targeted and also shows the personality of the applicant helps me a lot in deciding whom to invite. Make it stand out without being obnoxious. Make it fitting for the company and the job. An anecdote to exemplify my point: I remember how my late father helped our neighbor's son with his application. He was a carpenter and had specialized in restoration. He wanted to apply for a job at a workshop that had been set up to do just that. My father and he then designed (and he made) a special application folder made of wood. This had very fine intarsia work and showed very precisely what skills the neighbor's son had as a craftsman. The cover letter and curriculum vitae were of course also well thought out and designed. No question. An application - an interview - a job offer at one of the leading workshops for restoration work in Europe.
Philip-J-Fry 6y ago
I agree with that 100%. I've had interviews with every company I've applied to when it's been for a specific job. I don't always get results when I speculatively apply or apply for something which I might not be the best candidate for. But if it's something I know, then it's as simple as touching up the CV, writing a personalised cover letter about my experience in industry, what I can bring to the company, what I'm interested in working on etc. People underestimate cover letters so much. Nothing says you've done your research than 300-400 words about why you want the job. Shotgunning CVs to a billion companies is a brute force approach.
user5994461 6y ago
What is high quality applications supposed to mean? Most tech jobs are simply sending a resume and maybe filling a short form. There's no difference between applications.
- JumpCrisscross 6y ago
  > What is high quality applications supposed to mean? Most tech jobs are simply sending a resume and maybe filling a short form A resume for the job. Sending the same resume every time skips an opportunity to sell yourself. It commoditises you.
  - ghaff 6y ago
    Not that I've applied to all that many jobs since school (a long time ago), I'm not sure I agree unless you're applying for materially different roles. I certainly agree that a cover letter should usually be customized. However, the downside of customizing a resume for each application is that it introduces the possibility of mistakes or at least less polishing. At the least it's a tradeoff.
demosito666 6y ago
Is the job market so tough/picky in US (I assume it's US by default since we're on HN) or is it because the IT companies don't hire people without CS degree? I get 2-3 interview invites every day on my LikedIn account just for listed keywords (nothing special, really, generic devops stuff). And the account is explicitly marked as "not looking for a job". I leave in Eastern Europe with a lot of huge outsource outlets though, maybe that drives the demand up.
- titanomachy 6y ago
  The job market is pretty unequal here. The software jobs that pay high professional salaries are indeed competitive, but there are quite a few lower-paid jobs available. I don't know if this is the case in your country, but my impression of the European market is that the pay difference between a "mediocre" and "good" job is pretty small: say, €40k vs €50k / year for an entry-level job in one of the richer countries. In the US, a mediocre entry-level job might pay $50k / year while a top-tier one pays $150k or more. The level of competition for the higher tier is extreme.
titanomachy 6y ago
I've experienced both of these things: applying to many jobs and getting many rejections, as well as applying to a few focused companies and getting multiple offers. In my experience, without a prestigious education it's common for the first job search to involve lots of rejections. Your description of the process sounds similar to my second and third job searches, after I had some experience. The first time, I didn't have a resume that clearly showed experience in the kind of work I was trying to get, so I rarely got past screening. After about a year working at a recognizable (but not especially prestigious) company, I was able to get interviews more consistently. Second, I got a lot better at interviewing, through a relatively small amount of focused practicing. This got my interview pass rate close to 100%. Finally, my work experience allowed me to tell credible stories about things I'd accomplished and challenges I'd faced. I also learned, through experience, more of the shibboleths that engineers (often subconsciously) use to identify members of their in-group.

benjaminsuch 6y ago

Not sure why he is getting downvoted, but I agree. I did the same, without having a degree. Telling companies why you fit and why they should hire you has a huge effect, especially if you compete with people who come from a university with a degree in their pocket. Explaining a company why you are a great fit and directly write the responsible person in HR shows, that you: 1. Did not blindly sent out hundreds of applications 2. Gathered information about what the company does and evaluate your fit in consideration of your skillset 3. Contact the right person The 2. point is the most important one. Now, where I am in the position of hiring people, I would gladly take someone who tells me, thoughtful reasons of why we should hire him. But also don't underestimate the 3. point. Don't message the head of HR or similar persons. Instead write the people who will potentially be your lead. But it also depends where you apply. A big corporation? A startup? Government? Something else? The parent comment is correct regardless: Target-focus

soneca 6y ago

”I’m sure your success rate will improve then” I think you are wrong. I don’t have a CS degree, I don’t have top brand college or employer. You also assume wrong that I didn’t dedicated myself to apply to specific jobs where I was a very good fit. I did that. And it didn’t got me offers. If you tell me more about your profile, I am sure I can pinpoint why you get 100% success rate and I don’t. I am pretty sure it is not for the reasons you mentioned.

comprev 6y ago
Your comments echo what many who are currently employed say. When the shoe is on the other foot though, and unemployed, you can almost guarantee they will have applied to 100+ roles!
- Balgair 6y ago
  Oh man, it's in the thousands every time I apply. I used to keep a spreadsheet of it, but that just got depressing. Job searches are quite painful. (Note that I'm in biotech and real engineering, not SW)
  - maerF0x0 6y ago
    >real engineering, <fire emoji>. Some schools have tried to make Software Engineering actual engineering eg: https://www.apega.ca/apply/membership/exams/technical/software-engineering https://www.apega.ca/apply/membership/exams/technical/softwa...
capableweb 6y ago
I don't have any CS degree, nor studied at any college, nor worked at any famous employer neither. So probably irrelevant. I sure knows that when I'm doing the hiring, I rarely if ever read what colleges or what previous companies the candidate worked on. All that matters is what their experience is, what they learned so far, what they tell me they wanna do in the future and how they are as a person. > You also assume wrong that I didn’t dedicated myself to apply to specific jobs Yeah, that's my fault, sorry about that. It's hard for me to imagine how you can have time to send out 250+ applications and still have a dedicated cover letter and well-researched application for each one of them. While I don't know how the 250+ companies you've applied to are thinking, I can share how I think, when trying to hire someone for a position. And from your advice, only "good public sample of your code" and "clear explanations and thought process" would be something that I would care about. The rest of your advice are not only not relevant, but some are even outright harmful. Good writing absolutely helps someone (in my eyes) to be more fitting for any type of position. My advice to job seekers would also be to look for advice regarding getting hired by either people who have been hired, consistently so, or by the people who are doing the hiring. While it could be helpful, chances are that people who haven't got a high success rate at getting hired, aren't able to give you good advice.

sdoering 6y ago

He might be right, that a top brand college (and other stuff) will help getting past the HR filter. But I do not agree that this is the only thing. I agree with you, that very specifically targeted and created applications will get a response rate better by at least a factor of ten. I am often on the other side. Reading applications and deciding whom to invite to an interview. As Inteverviews take time for at least me and 3 other colleagues I filter very strongly. For one hour of interview the amount of time it takes (preparation, discussion afterwards, and so on) can take up to 1 - 1.5 person days. As I am working for an agency this means 1.5 days me and my colleagues can't earn money for the company by working productively for our clients (even our managers work hands on on client projects at least part of their time). So creating a well thought out application, one that is targeted and also shows the personality of the applicant helps me a lot in deciding whom to invite. Make it stand out without being obnoxious. Make it fitting for the company and the job. An anecdote to exemplify my point: I remember how my late father helped our neighbor's son with his application. He was a carpenter and had specialized in restoration. He wanted to apply for a job at a workshop that had been set up to do just that. My father and he then designed (and he made) a special application folder made of wood. This had very fine intarsia work and showed very precisely what skills the neighbor's son had as a craftsman. The cover letter and curriculum vitae were of course also well thought out and designed. No question. An application - an interview - a job offer at one of the leading workshops for restoration work in Europe.

Philip-J-Fry 6y ago

I agree with that 100%. I've had interviews with every company I've applied to when it's been for a specific job. I don't always get results when I speculatively apply or apply for something which I might not be the best candidate for. But if it's something I know, then it's as simple as touching up the CV, writing a personalised cover letter about my experience in industry, what I can bring to the company, what I'm interested in working on etc. People underestimate cover letters so much. Nothing says you've done your research than 300-400 words about why you want the job. Shotgunning CVs to a billion companies is a brute force approach.

user5994461 6y ago

What is high quality applications supposed to mean? Most tech jobs are simply sending a resume and maybe filling a short form. There's no difference between applications.

JumpCrisscross 6y ago
> What is high quality applications supposed to mean? Most tech jobs are simply sending a resume and maybe filling a short form A resume for the job. Sending the same resume every time skips an opportunity to sell yourself. It commoditises you.
- ghaff 6y ago
  Not that I've applied to all that many jobs since school (a long time ago), I'm not sure I agree unless you're applying for materially different roles. I certainly agree that a cover letter should usually be customized. However, the downside of customizing a resume for each application is that it introduces the possibility of mistakes or at least less polishing. At the least it's a tradeoff.

demosito666 6y ago

Is the job market so tough/picky in US (I assume it's US by default since we're on HN) or is it because the IT companies don't hire people without CS degree? I get 2-3 interview invites every day on my LikedIn account just for listed keywords (nothing special, really, generic devops stuff). And the account is explicitly marked as "not looking for a job". I leave in Eastern Europe with a lot of huge outsource outlets though, maybe that drives the demand up.

titanomachy 6y ago
The job market is pretty unequal here. The software jobs that pay high professional salaries are indeed competitive, but there are quite a few lower-paid jobs available. I don't know if this is the case in your country, but my impression of the European market is that the pay difference between a "mediocre" and "good" job is pretty small: say, €40k vs €50k / year for an entry-level job in one of the richer countries. In the US, a mediocre entry-level job might pay $50k / year while a top-tier one pays $150k or more. The level of competition for the higher tier is extreme.

titanomachy 6y ago

I've experienced both of these things: applying to many jobs and getting many rejections, as well as applying to a few focused companies and getting multiple offers. In my experience, without a prestigious education it's common for the first job search to involve lots of rejections. Your description of the process sounds similar to my second and third job searches, after I had some experience. The first time, I didn't have a resume that clearly showed experience in the kind of work I was trying to get, so I rarely got past screening. After about a year working at a recognizable (but not especially prestigious) company, I was able to get interviews more consistently. Second, I got a lot better at interviewing, through a relatively small amount of focused practicing. This got my interview pass rate close to 100%. Finally, my work experience allowed me to tell credible stories about things I'd accomplished and challenges I'd faced. I also learned, through experience, more of the shibboleths that engineers (often subconsciously) use to identify members of their in-group.