6 ms·

Keeping connection with the older generations and learning from them is important. But I don't think, nuclear families are about denying that. It's more about h

Keeping connection with the older generations and learning from them is important. But I don't think, nuclear families are about denying that. It's more about having enough space and freedom to see each other when you want it, but keeping off each other's backs and not letting the differences between the generations ruin your relations. I've grown up in a typical 3-generational Russian family sharing a rather small apartment, and I can tell you, it gets on your nerves when the grandparents want to watch TV at maximum volume, while the parent is trying to catch some sleep debt and the kid (me) is doing homework in the same room. That was one of the main reasons why I decided to move to the West where having enough private space was considered to be a basic and unquestionable necessity. Please, don't romanticize it. If our economy is changing in a way where the corporations are getting richer and richer, while the rank-and-file employees are forced to live with their parents forever and will never afford to move out, it's not cool at all. It's a sign of very serious economic troubles and we need to focus on solving them instead of trying to think of the changes in a positive way, and then wondering why is everyone depressed.

ponker 6y ago
We live in a 3 generational family sharing anything but a small apartment and it's absolutely wonderful. Us, the nuclear family, occupies the 3000 sqft house. My in-laws live in the guest house which is about 800 sqft. My parents live about a mile away. We see a lot of each other but everyone has their space.
- kimjongtrill 6y ago
  That is 100% different from parent comment’s situation though...
  - ponker 6y ago
    Right, but my point is that “Living with parents” is a wildly different experience if you have enough space. Not a rebuttal, a different anecdote.
    - GuB-42 6y ago
      Totally, I spent some time with my parents, grandparents and uncle in a very large house (800 m2). We didn't even feel like we were living together, it was more comparable to living in the same apartment complex. We even had internal phone lines. It was actually shocking to me because I usually lived with my parents in a small apartment and we were always aware of each other presence. It that big house, we actually had to do something to see each other, we could stay all day in our rooms as if we were alone if we wanted to.
    - macspoofing 6y ago
      ... but you're not living with parents.
    - buran77 6y ago
      > “Living with parents” is a wildly different experience if you have enough space. > My parents live about a mile away. Living with parents is indeed great especially when you're not actually living with them. You live alone. In-laws in another house, parents a mile away. Living with family means sharing the actual facilities of the house not just technically being on the same property, or in a house where you never have to cross paths. Having parents in another house on the same property doesn't mean "living together" more than a neighbor on the other side of a 30cm wall is living with you.
- 0ld 6y ago
  the parent comment was about a 3gen family sharing a (most likely) 17m^2 room in a 30-sh m^2 apartment, which was very common in the ussr. 6-7m^2 per person was even officially considered norm until middle 80s
- eptcyka 6y ago
  What's the annual household income in that situation?
  - ponker 6y ago
    $400k, parents generation is retired with plenty of money. My point is more broadly that in a family where everyone can comfortably afford to live alone, living together can be massively more fun.
    - xenocratus 6y ago
      I think the percentage of families that earn enough for that kind of mansion is below 1%
      - ponker 6y ago
        More like 5%. But the fact remains that "living alone" is considered aspirational in society, and that's not axiomatic. Plenty of American adults can afford to live alone, and do, but by pooling their resources with their parents, both can live on one property and have a much richer life together than living apart. My in-laws who live on the property sold their house to help us buy the property -- we couldn't have done it by ourselves, so we really had to break down some assumptions/default behaviors about financial independence which are fairly standard in the US.
- pjc50 6y ago
  If you're the 1%, anything is great. (That area of living space is almost unimaginable in the UK, I'd have to buy a disused hotel or small castle to get that)
Dirlewanger 6y ago
Don't romanticize what, living near your immediate family? Why? It's how literally every civilization has done things so far. This modern American ideal of forced to be on your own at 18 to find yourself has only been around for 70 years at most, and while we've achieved unthinkable progress in that time as a society, it's wrecked havoc over the family unit.
- mlang23 6y ago
  I am not sure that is as universally true as you believe. In the old ages, an apprentice actually had to move to a different area to be given the master title. I have no english references for you right now, and I am probably lacking the proper translations as well, but here is a German wikipedia article about the phenomenon which you can probably use to follow the breadcrums: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wanderjahre https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wanderjahre Also, I am not American, and moving out and implicitly stopping the overcontrolling manners of my mother was one of the best things I have done in my whole life. IOW, it really depends on your parents and family if you can stay and still develop into an independant adult.
- raxxorrax 6y ago
  I left home when I started university and never went back. It was awesome to have the freedom and I think most young people cherish that moment. I love my family and after my father died my mother and I were forced to live with my grandparents. It wasn't terrible, but there are generational conflicts that you have to consider. That can get exhausting and my mother was relieved when we got our own apartment even if she loves her parents. We are still near each other and there is no drama in my family. But I don't think anyone of us would like to share a house again. I don't like the popular cry for abolition of the nuclear family in favor of some comittment-less commune. But the other model to live within a family clan isn't attractive either. And you can still handle it as you like, because nobody is forcing you in either direction.
- buran77 6y ago
  > every civilization has done things so far. For lack of better conditions. You are arbitrarily picking this as an example of being right because it was done this way in the past. We changed so much for the better despite those things being done like that for generations. If you want a more technical analogy, this isn't about having a dedicated connection but about proper QoS. You can live in a mansion with family because you're still unencumbered. But reality is that for most living with their family is like having 3 Netflix streams on the same 128K line. And the fact that this is how every civilization has done things so far doesn't make it less of a pain. Makes it a traditional pain though.
golergka 6y ago
> I've grown up in a typical 3-generational Russian family sharing a rather small apartment, and I can tell you, it gets on your nerves when the grandparents want to watch TV at maximum volume, while the parent is trying to catch some sleep debt and the kid (me) is doing homework in the same room. That was one of the main reasons why I decided to move to the West where having enough private space was considered to be a basic and unquestionable necessity. I've had exactly the same experience, and I only now slowly come to realise the amount of emotional abuse that is normalised in such families. Shouting and fighting (physically, with bruises and injuries) on a daily basis, belittling one another, constantly being passive aggressive in any communication, never-ending hostility towards your closest family members — it's just something that is completely normal and expected in many, many families that live like this. Even without alcohol involved.
- nojokes 6y ago
  In some places where spacious apartments that were the norm 10 years have now new trend where the same bed room size apartment has gotten about 1.5 times smaller. Just the cost of the square meter is so high that even fairly high earning people could not comfortably afford them anymore.
  - golergka 6y ago
    I have sympathy for people who are gradually priced out of basic necessities in life, but living in a center of one of the world's busiest and most expensive cities isn't a necessity. If a person is insisting on making that choice instead of moving out, especially in a world that is moving more and more into remote work, well, it's their responsibility. Comparing this situation with a system without private property or even ability to rent, where apartments are leased by the state through your employer and you have no choice in the matter and have to wait years in order to move is a really, really long stretch.
    - thereisnospork 6y ago
      >Comparing this situation with a system without private property or even ability to rent, where apartments are leased by the state through your employer and you have no choice in the matter and have to wait years in order to move is a really, really long stretch. Why is the soft touch approach of government making housing unaffordable any different, morally?
csomar 6y ago
> That was one of the main reasons why I decided to move to the West where having enough private space was considered to be a basic and unquestionable necessity. I thought the reason these societies lived together was lack of financial means. It's not very different from where I currently live, but anybody that has enough funds to go on his own does indeed do it. It's not, in my opinion, about culture but rather it's almost impossible for a 30-year old in these countries to strike it on their own. Pay too low, and living is too expensive. They have to make it work together.
- john_moscow 6y ago
  Well, the Soviet Union really tried implementing all those fair progressive ideas the West is so excited about. So the periphery, where the land was abundant, had constant shortage of food and household items. And in Moscow, that had much larger supply quotas (why wouldn't the bureaucrats think about themselves, huh?) there was a massive shortage of living space. So, to make it fair and square, apartments were allocated based on a bunch of metrics that included "square meters per registered person". The West is doing it in a more subtle way though. There is no National Bureau of Square Foot Planning, but the educated, financially independent suburban family with savings, that is trying to pass their ways to the kids, is no longer the role model. Instead, if your parents nagged your head inside out to do homework + extracurriculars + do STEM or GTFO, instead of watching TV and eating chips, you are privileged and must be ashamed of yourself. And if you represent a culture where packed multi-generational living is OK, you get visibility and a pat on the back to keep your ways, rather than strong pressure to raise your bar and shoot for the stars.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]

ponker 6y ago

We live in a 3 generational family sharing anything but a small apartment and it's absolutely wonderful. Us, the nuclear family, occupies the 3000 sqft house. My in-laws live in the guest house which is about 800 sqft. My parents live about a mile away. We see a lot of each other but everyone has their space.

kimjongtrill 6y ago
That is 100% different from parent comment’s situation though...
- ponker 6y ago
  Right, but my point is that “Living with parents” is a wildly different experience if you have enough space. Not a rebuttal, a different anecdote.
  - GuB-42 6y ago
    Totally, I spent some time with my parents, grandparents and uncle in a very large house (800 m2). We didn't even feel like we were living together, it was more comparable to living in the same apartment complex. We even had internal phone lines. It was actually shocking to me because I usually lived with my parents in a small apartment and we were always aware of each other presence. It that big house, we actually had to do something to see each other, we could stay all day in our rooms as if we were alone if we wanted to.
  - macspoofing 6y ago
    ... but you're not living with parents.
  - buran77 6y ago
    > “Living with parents” is a wildly different experience if you have enough space. > My parents live about a mile away. Living with parents is indeed great especially when you're not actually living with them. You live alone. In-laws in another house, parents a mile away. Living with family means sharing the actual facilities of the house not just technically being on the same property, or in a house where you never have to cross paths. Having parents in another house on the same property doesn't mean "living together" more than a neighbor on the other side of a 30cm wall is living with you.
0ld 6y ago
the parent comment was about a 3gen family sharing a (most likely) 17m^2 room in a 30-sh m^2 apartment, which was very common in the ussr. 6-7m^2 per person was even officially considered norm until middle 80s
eptcyka 6y ago
What's the annual household income in that situation?
- ponker 6y ago
  $400k, parents generation is retired with plenty of money. My point is more broadly that in a family where everyone can comfortably afford to live alone, living together can be massively more fun.
  - xenocratus 6y ago
    I think the percentage of families that earn enough for that kind of mansion is below 1%
    - ponker 6y ago
      More like 5%. But the fact remains that "living alone" is considered aspirational in society, and that's not axiomatic. Plenty of American adults can afford to live alone, and do, but by pooling their resources with their parents, both can live on one property and have a much richer life together than living apart. My in-laws who live on the property sold their house to help us buy the property -- we couldn't have done it by ourselves, so we really had to break down some assumptions/default behaviors about financial independence which are fairly standard in the US.
pjc50 6y ago
If you're the 1%, anything is great. (That area of living space is almost unimaginable in the UK, I'd have to buy a disused hotel or small castle to get that)

Dirlewanger 6y ago

Don't romanticize what, living near your immediate family? Why? It's how literally every civilization has done things so far. This modern American ideal of forced to be on your own at 18 to find yourself has only been around for 70 years at most, and while we've achieved unthinkable progress in that time as a society, it's wrecked havoc over the family unit.

mlang23 6y ago
I am not sure that is as universally true as you believe. In the old ages, an apprentice actually had to move to a different area to be given the master title. I have no english references for you right now, and I am probably lacking the proper translations as well, but here is a German wikipedia article about the phenomenon which you can probably use to follow the breadcrums: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wanderjahre https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wanderjahre Also, I am not American, and moving out and implicitly stopping the overcontrolling manners of my mother was one of the best things I have done in my whole life. IOW, it really depends on your parents and family if you can stay and still develop into an independant adult.
raxxorrax 6y ago
I left home when I started university and never went back. It was awesome to have the freedom and I think most young people cherish that moment. I love my family and after my father died my mother and I were forced to live with my grandparents. It wasn't terrible, but there are generational conflicts that you have to consider. That can get exhausting and my mother was relieved when we got our own apartment even if she loves her parents. We are still near each other and there is no drama in my family. But I don't think anyone of us would like to share a house again. I don't like the popular cry for abolition of the nuclear family in favor of some comittment-less commune. But the other model to live within a family clan isn't attractive either. And you can still handle it as you like, because nobody is forcing you in either direction.
buran77 6y ago
> every civilization has done things so far. For lack of better conditions. You are arbitrarily picking this as an example of being right because it was done this way in the past. We changed so much for the better despite those things being done like that for generations. If you want a more technical analogy, this isn't about having a dedicated connection but about proper QoS. You can live in a mansion with family because you're still unencumbered. But reality is that for most living with their family is like having 3 Netflix streams on the same 128K line. And the fact that this is how every civilization has done things so far doesn't make it less of a pain. Makes it a traditional pain though.

golergka 6y ago

> I've grown up in a typical 3-generational Russian family sharing a rather small apartment, and I can tell you, it gets on your nerves when the grandparents want to watch TV at maximum volume, while the parent is trying to catch some sleep debt and the kid (me) is doing homework in the same room. That was one of the main reasons why I decided to move to the West where having enough private space was considered to be a basic and unquestionable necessity. I've had exactly the same experience, and I only now slowly come to realise the amount of emotional abuse that is normalised in such families. Shouting and fighting (physically, with bruises and injuries) on a daily basis, belittling one another, constantly being passive aggressive in any communication, never-ending hostility towards your closest family members — it's just something that is completely normal and expected in many, many families that live like this. Even without alcohol involved.

nojokes 6y ago
In some places where spacious apartments that were the norm 10 years have now new trend where the same bed room size apartment has gotten about 1.5 times smaller. Just the cost of the square meter is so high that even fairly high earning people could not comfortably afford them anymore.
- golergka 6y ago
  I have sympathy for people who are gradually priced out of basic necessities in life, but living in a center of one of the world's busiest and most expensive cities isn't a necessity. If a person is insisting on making that choice instead of moving out, especially in a world that is moving more and more into remote work, well, it's their responsibility. Comparing this situation with a system without private property or even ability to rent, where apartments are leased by the state through your employer and you have no choice in the matter and have to wait years in order to move is a really, really long stretch.
  - thereisnospork 6y ago
    >Comparing this situation with a system without private property or even ability to rent, where apartments are leased by the state through your employer and you have no choice in the matter and have to wait years in order to move is a really, really long stretch. Why is the soft touch approach of government making housing unaffordable any different, morally?

csomar 6y ago

> That was one of the main reasons why I decided to move to the West where having enough private space was considered to be a basic and unquestionable necessity. I thought the reason these societies lived together was lack of financial means. It's not very different from where I currently live, but anybody that has enough funds to go on his own does indeed do it. It's not, in my opinion, about culture but rather it's almost impossible for a 30-year old in these countries to strike it on their own. Pay too low, and living is too expensive. They have to make it work together.

john_moscow 6y ago
Well, the Soviet Union really tried implementing all those fair progressive ideas the West is so excited about. So the periphery, where the land was abundant, had constant shortage of food and household items. And in Moscow, that had much larger supply quotas (why wouldn't the bureaucrats think about themselves, huh?) there was a massive shortage of living space. So, to make it fair and square, apartments were allocated based on a bunch of metrics that included "square meters per registered person". The West is doing it in a more subtle way though. There is no National Bureau of Square Foot Planning, but the educated, financially independent suburban family with savings, that is trying to pass their ways to the kids, is no longer the role model. Instead, if your parents nagged your head inside out to do homework + extracurriculars + do STEM or GTFO, instead of watching TV and eating chips, you are privileged and must be ashamed of yourself. And if you represent a culture where packed multi-generational living is OK, you get visibility and a pat on the back to keep your ways, rather than strong pressure to raise your bar and shoot for the stars.

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]