8 ms·

Not Just Nuclear: Families are elders long buried and generations yet unborn

andrewem 6y ago
The author is this rather famous novelist: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edwidge_Danticat https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edwidge_Danticat
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
marktangotango 6y ago
> In the mountain village where my uncle and father were born, a single deed could mark or stain your family’s reputation for generations, placing you in a hierarchy that, if only enforced by gossip or shame, might still decide the fate of your progeny. I am not sure that’s still true, but my father held on to that notion until his death, in part because it was taught to him by his father, who had learned it from his father. This is why they had to leave the ancestral village and move to the capital, my father would say. Though neither he nor his siblings had committed shameful acts, they longed to start over in a new place where the generational burden was less weighty. I’ve often reflected on this reality that seems to have been lost for most of humanity. At least urban dwelling folks, although I’m sure it persists in a lot of rural areas. The desire, need, instinct to be in the “in group”, not excluded was a matter of life and death for all of humanities existence. Bullying, cliques, and tribes (political parties, sports fans, programming language zealots, ...) make more sense when viewed from that angle (imo) and not likely something we’ll easily overcome.
awinter-py 6y ago
In an old house there is always listening, and more is heard than is spoken. And what is spoken remains in the room, waiting for the future to hear it. And whatever happened begins in in the past, and presses hard on the future. The agony in the curtained bedroom, whether of birth or of dying, gathers into itself all the voices of the past, and projects them into the future.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- markc 6y ago
  T.S. Eliot
john_moscow 6y ago
Keeping connection with the older generations and learning from them is important. But I don't think, nuclear families are about denying that. It's more about having enough space and freedom to see each other when you want it, but keeping off each other's backs and not letting the differences between the generations ruin your relations. I've grown up in a typical 3-generational Russian family sharing a rather small apartment, and I can tell you, it gets on your nerves when the grandparents want to watch TV at maximum volume, while the parent is trying to catch some sleep debt and the kid (me) is doing homework in the same room. That was one of the main reasons why I decided to move to the West where having enough private space was considered to be a basic and unquestionable necessity. Please, don't romanticize it. If our economy is changing in a way where the corporations are getting richer and richer, while the rank-and-file employees are forced to live with their parents forever and will never afford to move out, it's not cool at all. It's a sign of very serious economic troubles and we need to focus on solving them instead of trying to think of the changes in a positive way, and then wondering why is everyone depressed.
- ponker 6y ago
  We live in a 3 generational family sharing anything but a small apartment and it's absolutely wonderful. Us, the nuclear family, occupies the 3000 sqft house. My in-laws live in the guest house which is about 800 sqft. My parents live about a mile away. We see a lot of each other but everyone has their space.
  - kimjongtrill 6y ago
    That is 100% different from parent comment’s situation though...
    - ponker 6y ago
      Right, but my point is that “Living with parents” is a wildly different experience if you have enough space. Not a rebuttal, a different anecdote.
      - 6y ago
JKCalhoun 6y ago
I have become the self-appointed steward of the family photo archive after my aunt pulled a suitcase stuffed with photos out from under the bed in the spare room in her trailer. The suitcase's original owner, another aunt, "Aunt" Faye, had lived to be 103 years old but had never had children. And so I got to work scanning I believe over 500 photos — the earliest a tin-type from 1890 or so. Many were then cleaned up in Photos — levels adjusted, scratches and imperfections "healed" digitally. In time I was able to scan more photos from the family and increase my collection. Likely over 1000 now. Some photos had something written on either the front or back and I also dutifully added metadata to the digital photo describing the text written. At this time too, I had begun doing some genealogy on Ancestry.com. As I pored over the photos, trying to determine who was in the photo, where the photo was taken, I began to "know" the people — family dead even before I was born. I could recognize them then. It became easier to approximate the date of the photos too: looking for young relatives in the photos, guessing their apparent age, knowing when they were born from my genealogy. Eventually they began to sort: first a young Gertrude standing awkwardly in the tin-type as a child, another studio photo and she's about to become a teen, then with her sisters as a young woman, married, with her own children, in her new dress, with her daughter and her daughter's husband, on vacation, with her grandchildren, white-haired with her daughter - now old herself. Finally her headstone. Entire lives, captured in photographs. And interleaved with the children they gave birth to, who too grew old in photos and also died — and in one case leaving, as it were, a suitcase of these photos that would come to me. The connectivity of family back past 100 years has never been made so real to me as it has through photos. Maybe I should have been able to see that continuity in the absence of family photos but there they are. And as I get older I do consider more and more those not yet born. I suppose this digital legacy is one obvious example. I have been spreading the photos as far and wide as I can, not just to far flung relatives but also to Ancestry.com, Find-A-Grave.com, etc. Surprisingly, I have already had relatives I did not know existed reach out to me having stumbled upon some of these photos on Ancestry and Find-A-Grave. Family photo calendars I created for a few years were sent to two dozen relatives. I have a "family photo album" I am now assembling — I hope to have it done in a year or so and print a few dozen through Lulu.com or similar and send those out to as many relatives who want them as well.
- strawberrypuree 6y ago
WarOnPrivacy 6y ago
I lament the pressure for US nuclear families to fissure apart. It may not be overt pressure but it's consistent, delivered in countless expectations (do job|college and move out|away) and assumptions (gone yet?) My parents died when I was 14 & 21 respectively. Decades before, my dad moved my mom away so we grew up w/o any extended family nearby. When my first child was born, my wife and I were on our own - which would surprise zero Americans. Objectively I was good parent and a terrible parent. With no ongoing guidance, the terrible wound up outweighing the good (because w/o exp, what we have are hunches, anecdotes and ill equipped reasoning). My kids and I will spend the rest of our lives repaving my bad roads. This result would have been different with extended family nearby and - critically - some on hand. Some American ideals (eg:individualistic independence) come with an unreasonably high price. We would be a far better people if we elevated keeping 3+ generations together and normalized housing that would support that.
- AtlasBarfed 6y ago
  The demographic bomb of a huge mass of people entering high-cost-healthcare old age and not being supported by enough young people being born (aka the entitlements pyramid scheme) seems to be exacerbated by the elderly potential grandparents not offering their services to make raising of grandchildren easier, especially in modern two-income cultures. While obvious I was not around for previous generations of childrearing and can't comment as to whether the 1950s nuclear family represented a fundamental drop in childrearing support/labor by grandparents and extended family, being a recent parent and being around other recent parents, it does seem like grandparents and extended family aren't as helpful as it "feels" like they should. Combine that with the massive generational war underway in America between college debt, healthcare costs, home ownership costs, and vastly reduced job market, it really does seem like we need fundamental policy to encourage having kids, starting with child care. Immigration can't serve all of the generational pyramid scheme. A "retired people child care corps" would be a nice thing to try. Mental and physical activity is key to health in retirement, and childcare is an excellent healthy disruption to retirement. They especially could help out with unscheduled childcare needs.
  - WarOnPrivacy 6y ago
sadfev 6y ago
What regressive Victorian era garbage is that?
- vinw 6y ago
  Have a look at some of the other articles on that site, it is some people's idea of Christian values.
  - yesenadam 6y ago
    Hmm yeah.. first one I looked at "The Case for One More Child: Why Large Families Will Save Humanity" seems pretty insane - too many extremely wacky sentences to quote here. https://www.plough.com/en/topics/life/parenting/the-case-for-one-more-child https://www.plough.com/en/topics/life/parenting/the-case-for...
    - maest 6y ago
      From the "about us"[0]: Plough is the publishing house of the Bruderhof, an international movement of Christian communities whose members are called to follow Jesus together in the spirit of the Sermon on the Mount and of the first church in Jerusalem, sharing all our talents, income, and possessions (Acts 2 and 4). Bruderhof communities, which include both families and single people from a wide range of backgrounds, are located in the United States, England, Germany, Australia, and Paraguay. [0] https://www.plough.com/en/about-us https://www.plough.com/en/about-us
      - tokai 6y ago
        Ah they are anabaptist. Thought that 'about us' sounded somewhat fringe. They hold some pretty extreme views on which relationships are okay/allowed, and how those relationships can be lived (no divorce or remarriage, only hetero, etc.). They are the last people anyone should listen to on the subject of modern relationships and families life.
        FooBarBizBazz 6y ago
PartiallyTyped 6y ago
I come from South Eastern Europe and lived quite a bit with my grandparents, my parents are split though. The experience wasn't really good. Older people tend to have a very fixed and opinionated idea of what is good or 'correct' that does not match the reality. I heard for the best part of my adolescence and childhood that 'sitting in-front of a computer will not put food on your plate'. Guess who studied CompSci? So, while this could work for the average household, it isn't a gospel and needs to be evaluated on a case by case basis.
- macspoofing 6y ago
  >I heard for the best part of my adolescence and childhood that 'sitting in-front of a computer will not put food on your plate'. To be fair to your grandparents, large amount of screen time is not good for children and teenagers. And let's face it, if you were like a typical teenager, your screen time was largely devoted to gaming or other non-academic endeavors. I suspect when you have children of your own, you'll start sounding like your grandparents. I found that after your 20s you start appreciating the advice and experience of older people and the wisdom behind it.
  - csomar 6y ago
    I think he meant he was working/studying CompSci and his grand-parents didn't understand what he was doing.
    - macspoofing 6y ago
      That's not quite what he said. He wrote: "I heard for the best part of my adolescence and childhood that 'sitting in-front of a computer will not put food on your plate'." I interpret that to mean he was talking about his childhood.
    - PartiallyTyped 6y ago
      He is partially correct, my childhood and early adolescence was spent on video games, my later adolescence was spent on CompSci and reading. I explain more in the sibling comment.
lcall 6y ago
Folks here might be interested in FamilySearch.org, where you might be able to find really interesting stuff about yourself. They are building a single (genealogical) family tree for humanity, it is free, they allow storing photos, stories, documents, etc., all connected with oneself and ancestors, so the memories can be preserved or researched or coordinated with other living relatives (even distant ones). It is impressive to see "where am I from" based on actual people names. And, it is hard to think of a life investment as good as being good to your family.

The author is this rather famous novelist: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edwidge_Danticat https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edwidge_Danticat

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

marktangotango 6y ago

> In the mountain village where my uncle and father were born, a single deed could mark or stain your family’s reputation for generations, placing you in a hierarchy that, if only enforced by gossip or shame, might still decide the fate of your progeny. I am not sure that’s still true, but my father held on to that notion until his death, in part because it was taught to him by his father, who had learned it from his father. This is why they had to leave the ancestral village and move to the capital, my father would say. Though neither he nor his siblings had committed shameful acts, they longed to start over in a new place where the generational burden was less weighty. I’ve often reflected on this reality that seems to have been lost for most of humanity. At least urban dwelling folks, although I’m sure it persists in a lot of rural areas. The desire, need, instinct to be in the “in group”, not excluded was a matter of life and death for all of humanities existence. Bullying, cliques, and tribes (political parties, sports fans, programming language zealots, ...) make more sense when viewed from that angle (imo) and not likely something we’ll easily overcome.

awinter-py 6y ago

In an old house there is always listening, and more is heard than is spoken. And what is spoken remains in the room, waiting for the future to hear it. And whatever happened begins in in the past, and presses hard on the future. The agony in the curtained bedroom, whether of birth or of dying, gathers into itself all the voices of the past, and projects them into the future.

deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
markc 6y ago
T.S. Eliot

john_moscow 6y ago

Keeping connection with the older generations and learning from them is important. But I don't think, nuclear families are about denying that. It's more about having enough space and freedom to see each other when you want it, but keeping off each other's backs and not letting the differences between the generations ruin your relations. I've grown up in a typical 3-generational Russian family sharing a rather small apartment, and I can tell you, it gets on your nerves when the grandparents want to watch TV at maximum volume, while the parent is trying to catch some sleep debt and the kid (me) is doing homework in the same room. That was one of the main reasons why I decided to move to the West where having enough private space was considered to be a basic and unquestionable necessity. Please, don't romanticize it. If our economy is changing in a way where the corporations are getting richer and richer, while the rank-and-file employees are forced to live with their parents forever and will never afford to move out, it's not cool at all. It's a sign of very serious economic troubles and we need to focus on solving them instead of trying to think of the changes in a positive way, and then wondering why is everyone depressed.

ponker 6y ago
We live in a 3 generational family sharing anything but a small apartment and it's absolutely wonderful. Us, the nuclear family, occupies the 3000 sqft house. My in-laws live in the guest house which is about 800 sqft. My parents live about a mile away. We see a lot of each other but everyone has their space.
- kimjongtrill 6y ago
  That is 100% different from parent comment’s situation though...
  - ponker 6y ago
    Right, but my point is that “Living with parents” is a wildly different experience if you have enough space. Not a rebuttal, a different anecdote.
    - 6y ago

JKCalhoun 6y ago

I have become the self-appointed steward of the family photo archive after my aunt pulled a suitcase stuffed with photos out from under the bed in the spare room in her trailer. The suitcase's original owner, another aunt, "Aunt" Faye, had lived to be 103 years old but had never had children. And so I got to work scanning I believe over 500 photos — the earliest a tin-type from 1890 or so. Many were then cleaned up in Photos — levels adjusted, scratches and imperfections "healed" digitally. In time I was able to scan more photos from the family and increase my collection. Likely over 1000 now. Some photos had something written on either the front or back and I also dutifully added metadata to the digital photo describing the text written. At this time too, I had begun doing some genealogy on Ancestry.com. As I pored over the photos, trying to determine who was in the photo, where the photo was taken, I began to "know" the people — family dead even before I was born. I could recognize them then. It became easier to approximate the date of the photos too: looking for young relatives in the photos, guessing their apparent age, knowing when they were born from my genealogy. Eventually they began to sort: first a young Gertrude standing awkwardly in the tin-type as a child, another studio photo and she's about to become a teen, then with her sisters as a young woman, married, with her own children, in her new dress, with her daughter and her daughter's husband, on vacation, with her grandchildren, white-haired with her daughter - now old herself. Finally her headstone. Entire lives, captured in photographs. And interleaved with the children they gave birth to, who too grew old in photos and also died — and in one case leaving, as it were, a suitcase of these photos that would come to me. The connectivity of family back past 100 years has never been made so real to me as it has through photos. Maybe I should have been able to see that continuity in the absence of family photos but there they are. And as I get older I do consider more and more those not yet born. I suppose this digital legacy is one obvious example. I have been spreading the photos as far and wide as I can, not just to far flung relatives but also to Ancestry.com, Find-A-Grave.com, etc. Surprisingly, I have already had relatives I did not know existed reach out to me having stumbled upon some of these photos on Ancestry and Find-A-Grave. Family photo calendars I created for a few years were sent to two dozen relatives. I have a "family photo album" I am now assembling — I hope to have it done in a year or so and print a few dozen through Lulu.com or similar and send those out to as many relatives who want them as well.

strawberrypuree 6y ago

WarOnPrivacy 6y ago

I lament the pressure for US nuclear families to fissure apart. It may not be overt pressure but it's consistent, delivered in countless expectations (do job|college and move out|away) and assumptions (gone yet?) My parents died when I was 14 & 21 respectively. Decades before, my dad moved my mom away so we grew up w/o any extended family nearby. When my first child was born, my wife and I were on our own - which would surprise zero Americans. Objectively I was good parent and a terrible parent. With no ongoing guidance, the terrible wound up outweighing the good (because w/o exp, what we have are hunches, anecdotes and ill equipped reasoning). My kids and I will spend the rest of our lives repaving my bad roads. This result would have been different with extended family nearby and - critically - some on hand. Some American ideals (eg:individualistic independence) come with an unreasonably high price. We would be a far better people if we elevated keeping 3+ generations together and normalized housing that would support that.

AtlasBarfed 6y ago
The demographic bomb of a huge mass of people entering high-cost-healthcare old age and not being supported by enough young people being born (aka the entitlements pyramid scheme) seems to be exacerbated by the elderly potential grandparents not offering their services to make raising of grandchildren easier, especially in modern two-income cultures. While obvious I was not around for previous generations of childrearing and can't comment as to whether the 1950s nuclear family represented a fundamental drop in childrearing support/labor by grandparents and extended family, being a recent parent and being around other recent parents, it does seem like grandparents and extended family aren't as helpful as it "feels" like they should. Combine that with the massive generational war underway in America between college debt, healthcare costs, home ownership costs, and vastly reduced job market, it really does seem like we need fundamental policy to encourage having kids, starting with child care. Immigration can't serve all of the generational pyramid scheme. A "retired people child care corps" would be a nice thing to try. Mental and physical activity is key to health in retirement, and childcare is an excellent healthy disruption to retirement. They especially could help out with unscheduled childcare needs.
- WarOnPrivacy 6y ago

sadfev 6y ago

What regressive Victorian era garbage is that?

vinw 6y ago
Have a look at some of the other articles on that site, it is some people's idea of Christian values.
- yesenadam 6y ago
  Hmm yeah.. first one I looked at "The Case for One More Child: Why Large Families Will Save Humanity" seems pretty insane - too many extremely wacky sentences to quote here. https://www.plough.com/en/topics/life/parenting/the-case-for-one-more-child https://www.plough.com/en/topics/life/parenting/the-case-for...
  - maest 6y ago
    From the "about us"[0]: Plough is the publishing house of the Bruderhof, an international movement of Christian communities whose members are called to follow Jesus together in the spirit of the Sermon on the Mount and of the first church in Jerusalem, sharing all our talents, income, and possessions (Acts 2 and 4). Bruderhof communities, which include both families and single people from a wide range of backgrounds, are located in the United States, England, Germany, Australia, and Paraguay. [0] https://www.plough.com/en/about-us https://www.plough.com/en/about-us
    - tokai 6y ago
      Ah they are anabaptist. Thought that 'about us' sounded somewhat fringe. They hold some pretty extreme views on which relationships are okay/allowed, and how those relationships can be lived (no divorce or remarriage, only hetero, etc.). They are the last people anyone should listen to on the subject of modern relationships and families life.
      - FooBarBizBazz 6y ago

PartiallyTyped 6y ago

I come from South Eastern Europe and lived quite a bit with my grandparents, my parents are split though. The experience wasn't really good. Older people tend to have a very fixed and opinionated idea of what is good or 'correct' that does not match the reality. I heard for the best part of my adolescence and childhood that 'sitting in-front of a computer will not put food on your plate'. Guess who studied CompSci? So, while this could work for the average household, it isn't a gospel and needs to be evaluated on a case by case basis.

macspoofing 6y ago
>I heard for the best part of my adolescence and childhood that 'sitting in-front of a computer will not put food on your plate'. To be fair to your grandparents, large amount of screen time is not good for children and teenagers. And let's face it, if you were like a typical teenager, your screen time was largely devoted to gaming or other non-academic endeavors. I suspect when you have children of your own, you'll start sounding like your grandparents. I found that after your 20s you start appreciating the advice and experience of older people and the wisdom behind it.
- csomar 6y ago
  I think he meant he was working/studying CompSci and his grand-parents didn't understand what he was doing.
  - macspoofing 6y ago
    That's not quite what he said. He wrote: "I heard for the best part of my adolescence and childhood that 'sitting in-front of a computer will not put food on your plate'." I interpret that to mean he was talking about his childhood.
  - PartiallyTyped 6y ago
    He is partially correct, my childhood and early adolescence was spent on video games, my later adolescence was spent on CompSci and reading. I explain more in the sibling comment.

lcall 6y ago

Folks here might be interested in FamilySearch.org, where you might be able to find really interesting stuff about yourself. They are building a single (genealogical) family tree for humanity, it is free, they allow storing photos, stories, documents, etc., all connected with oneself and ancestors, so the memories can be preserved or researched or coordinated with other living relatives (even distant ones). It is impressive to see "where am I from" based on actual people names. And, it is hard to think of a life investment as good as being good to your family.