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My wife and I just moved from Orange County, CA to Detroit, MI this last August. We decided to drive the northern route. Heading through Vegas, Utah, Yellowsto

My wife and I just moved from Orange County, CA to Detroit, MI this last August. We decided to drive the northern route. Heading through Vegas, Utah, Yellowstone and Montana. Then onward through the plains of North Dakota and Minnesota. Turning north we entered Wisconsin and finally the UP (Upper Peninsula) of Michigan. After a few days exploring we turned south to Detroit. In Vegas the concern for masks started to wane. By Utah, no fucks were given and pretty much not a single fuck was given until we crossed the Mackinac Bridge into the lower peninsula of Michigan. When I say no fucks were given - I mean that pretty much no one around me cared about wearing a mask, social distancing, etc. Hotels would participate out of corporate necessity. We drove hundreds and hundreds of miles sometimes and were the only people in stores with masks on. Sometimes I felt like an outsider alien, being stared at by the people around me. I was surprised yet not surprised at the same time. So the surge and issues the comminuties up there are facing don't surprise me in the least.

posix_compliant 6y ago
Weird, I moved from SF to Philadelphia last week and most stores on route 80 required masks.
- deleted 6y ago
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- andy318 6y ago
  How is the move working out for you, btw?
  - whalesalad 6y ago
    they're posix compliant so I would imagine they can colo anywhere lol
  - jeffbezos982134 6y ago
    I have lived in Philadelphia for almost 8 years now and it’s making less and less sense to live here. City taxes are high, housing prices are steadily increasing, making changes to property is an expensive, bureaucratic nightmare, parking is a nightmare, etc. There aren’t (m)any good places to work that pay well enough to justify the taxes and cost of living. The winter is cold and dreary, the summer is humid. If not for covid it would make a lot more sense to live in Boston or NYC. I’m interested in moving to South Carolina or Florida.
    - dang 6y ago
      Please don't use other people's real names in your HN username - it's a distraction and ultimately a subtle form of trolling (even if you don't mean it to be). If you'd like to use this account with a different name, we can change it for you - just email hn@ycombinator.com with the new name. https://hn.algolia.com/?sort=byDate&dateRange=all&type=comment&storyText=false&prefix=true&page=0&query=by:dang%20trollish%20username https://hn.algolia.com/?sort=byDate&dateRange=all&type=comme...
    - randcraw 6y ago
      If you want to live in SC or FL, Philly was never the right place for you. The city exemplifies all classic east coast metropolii; it's vertical, industrial, impatient, no-nonsense and in-your-face. Having lived here for 15 years I've seen Philly offer a little bit of everything, from cultured worldliness to provincial naval gazing. And all of it happens at an urban breakneck speed the east coast is rightly famous for. Philly, Boston, and NYC are kith and kin (esp. politically), and have much more in common with SF than do SC or non-urban FL. There the tempo of life is slower and more formal, like their danse de rigueur, the gavotte.
tedmcory77 6y ago
A few weeks ago we drove from Hendersonville, NC (by Asheville) down through South Carolina and Georgia. We were the only folks in gas stations wearing masks, and received a few chuckles when people saw us wearing them. Your comment of feeling like an outsider alien really resonates.
- davek01 6y ago
  That's funny because I'm from SC and Hendersonville was the first place I felt that was too lax in social distancing this summer. In 2 different restaurants (Pop's Diner and Flat Rock Wood Room) parties were sat at tables adjacent to ours. I actually had to check to see if NC had any sort of restrictions in place. Anecdotally, I would say that mask adoption in SC where I live is ~65-70% but even in places where I was in the minority for wearing a mask I've never seen a smirk or a chuckle and definitely haven't felt alienated.
  - neltnerb 6y ago
    No matter where you are there will be some fraction of people who are children about it. I'm in Boston and friends have had people yell in their faces about how they're stupid for worrying about it (home depot) and I've personally had people drive by and feel the need to bother shouting out their window about how my mask is gay. To be fair, my mask has lovely periwinkle patterns and I am gay, but that's a lot of effort they're putting into getting attention and obviously comes from deep seated issues with their own masculinity that aren't my problem. Nonetheless they have been the exception rather than the rule, so it may be good to assume the best unless someone is actually accosting you. I've noticed there is a strong tendency for people to assume that a stranger's gaze is antagonistic when in reality they barely register you are there. It is hard to not be extra sensitive to these things when you are a minority, I guess honestly a lot of people are learning what that feels like for the first time.
- deleted 6y ago
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- throwaway0a5e 6y ago
  I don't think using a gas station as your benchmark is fair. I live in what is literally the bluest state if the per county election maps are to be believed. Nobody wears masks at the gas stations unless you're going inside. Mask compliance is practically 100% inside.
Claudus 6y ago
Out of curiosity, what is your basis for wearing a mask?
- jasonlaramburu 6y ago
  Common sense?
- whalesalad 6y ago
  Even if 10 years from now we discover that wearing a mask was a completely pointless endeavor .... the cost of wearing a mask is SO LOW that it is worth doing it. But it is scientifically proven to limit the rate of the spread, which is the least I can do to protect myself and those around me. I don't care if I get covid ... I don't think it will kill me based on my vitals. However, we don't fully understand the long term physical and mental health implications of having it (both neurological and psychological), we don't understand it from a 'pre-existing condition' standpoint, and hey who knows it could hit me like a train and do me serious harm or kill me. Plus, I would like to further the goal of eliminating the virus entirely, and not spreading it to others helps that. I can't believe there are still people out there clamoring to the idea that there is any other way.
  - Claudus 6y ago
    Scientifically proven to limit the rate of spread? Are you sure about that? Do you think COVID is airborne? Do you think saliva droplets large enough to collect on the mask are “airborne”? Do you think saliva carries viral particles? Do you think breathing through a saliva saturated mask can cause those viral particles to become airborne? If someone with COVID sneezed into a handkerchief and then draped it over a small fan to dry, would you be comfortable sitting in front of it? Can wearing a mask improperly increase the chance of spreading COVID? What percentage of people wear their masks properly? What new evidence or scientific studies were presented that caused the switch from “no, don’t wear masks” to “yes, do wear masks”? What does it say about the reasoning behind beliefs when people feel the need to downvote someone for questioning them?
  - drcross 6y ago
pwinnski 6y ago
I spent a weekend in Oklahoma last month (October 10-11), and was unable to enjoy myself because so few people were wearing masks, observing anything like distancing, etc. I saw a Carls Jr. employee wearing a corporate-supplied t-shirt that used "maskhole" to describe anyone not wearing a mask... and he was not wearing a mask, just like all the other employees. The hotel itself was the only place that seemed to be taking the pandemic seriously, so we retreated there, ate takeout, and left early. The current spike in Oklahoma[0] does not surprise me at all. 0. https://mackuba.eu/corona/#oklahoma_united_states.daily?trend=7 https://mackuba.eu/corona/#oklahoma_united_states.daily?tren...
- deleted 6y ago
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mrosett 6y ago
It depends quite a bit on where you are in any particular state. We did a similar move in May and I found that rural gas stations had close to zero mask usage, but in any larger city people were wearing masks. Some tourist hotspots (e.g. Moab) also have good mask compliance, perhaps because local businesses are desperate to avoid a full shutdown. FWIW, I live in Utah, and in my urban neighborhood I actually see very good mask compliance. Further into the suburbs adherence drops.
- dharmab 6y ago
  It _really_ drops off at the county line between Salt Lake and Utah counties.
michaelbuckbee 6y ago
If you'd like to see an absolutely terrifying map go to: https://www.covidexitstrategy.org/ https://www.covidexitstrategy.org/ and scroll down to the "Can Our Health System Handle the Spread?" and look at the concentric rings of new infections/million radiating out of North and South Dakota. This lines up very well with the parent comment's observations.
deleted 6y ago
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padseeker 6y ago
I live in Chicago, and masks are the norm everywhere. Definitely indoors, and to a lesser degree outdoors. We rented a house in Wisconsin for a weekend in the fall, and culturally there was a big difference. Went to pick up a pizza and the outdoor patio was packed, drinking beer and watching college football. There were some people wearing masks, but it was not the norm. We were definitely in the minority.
- randycupertino 6y ago
  I have family in rural Wisconsin and she wanted to buy masks and couldn't even find anywhere local to buy some. I ended up buying her a bunch in California and shipping them to her.
dharmab 6y ago
Last time I had to hit the road, I noticed that the social distancing/mask wearing travelers were avoiding towns and eating/relaxing at highway rest stops.
cltby 6y ago
Given that we're seeing the same spike in our big, coastal metro areas, perhaps the problem is more complicated than rural attitudes towards Covid. [0] https://outbreak.info/epidemiology?location=METRO_42660%3BMETRO_14460%3BMETRO_35620%3BMETRO_31080%3BMETRO_41860&log=false&variable=confirmed_numIncrease&xVariable=date&fixedY=false&percapita=false https://outbreak.info/epidemiology?location=METRO_42660%3BME...
- cure 6y ago
  > Given that we're seeing the same spike in our big, coastal metro areas When taking the differences in total population and population density into account, the spikes in sparsely populated states like OK are nothing like the spikes in densely populated states like NY.
- bryanlarsen 6y ago
  NY: 231 cases per million SD: 1609 cases per million https://www.covidexitstrategy.org/ https://www.covidexitstrategy.org/
  - casefields 6y ago
    Cuomo already culled a vast portion of their weakest members. Of course they're are doing alright now. High five, I guess.
matz1 6y ago
>Heading through Vegas, Utah >When I say no fucks were given - I mean that pretty much no one around me cared about wearing a mask, social distancing, etc Good to hear, plan to visit these places soon. The risk is worth it.
coding123 6y ago
It's actually the state governments that's at fault here. Not the specifically the people. Let me tell you I was in back-country Oregon recently, some of the MOST republican places within Oregon, not going to name drop the county. Anyway, the Oregon state government is very much democratic (cause you know Portland). But because of that, even the republican counties are under a mask order. And the extremely red counties, people are actually wearing masks all over the place. Grocery stores even are employing someone to just stand there and either hand a cheapy surg. mask or tell them to put one on. So what I'm saying is that regardless of what people WANT to do, the state has the power and push to get people to do it. And this is why we need Biden in office yesterday.
- Impashin 6y ago
  > the state has the power and push to get people to do it > this is why we need Biden in office You know Biden is running for national office, right? Not state government?
  - coding123 6y ago
    Well, start with this: https://www.cnn.com/2020/11/01/politics/mask-mandate-fact-check/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2020/11/01/politics/mask-mandate-fact-ch...
    - Impashin 6y ago
      This article demonstrates that the federal government does not (and should not) have the power to act in this manner. CNN found a single law professor who stated this: > "I don't think that the statute can be read broadly enough to apply to all people merely moving on an interstate highway," Blackman said. "Once you go beyond people in federal facilities, you're really intruding on what the state's responsible for." At best, they can cover Federal buildings with a policy. That is it.
      - gamblor956 6y ago
        Your comment proves the article's point. In the entire country, they could only find a single professor to say that the federal government doesn't have the power to issue a mask-mandate for occupants of vehicles on interstate highways. Given that these roadways in question are interstate the federal government's power to regulate activity thereon is assumed as the power to regulate interstate commerce is one of the constitutionally enumerated powers of the federal government.
munificent 6y ago
Meanwhile, here I am in the "anarchist jurisdiction" of Seattle and 90%+ of the people I see are wearing masks, socially distancing, and taking the scientific authorities seriously.
- cltby 6y ago
  I'm in Seattle too. The local health guidelines suggest that it's safe to: 1. Put on a mask before going outside 2. Stroll to your local favorite restaurant 3. Get a table indoors 4. Remove the mask 5. Socialize Some rural citizens are skipping steps 1 and 4, but Science only confers protection from covid when all the steps are followed. This sort of pandemic theater is why cases are at an all-time high here. The 90%+ are not being very well served by their scientific authorities.
  - disgruntledphd2 6y ago
    Yeah, the whole eating and drinking in public places inside is definitely not a good idea with respect to Covid.
  - munificent 6y ago
    > 3. Get a table indoors Keep in mind that restaurants are at significantly reduced capacity and those tables are now more widely spread apart. These guidelines mean you are much less likely to share airspace with strangers. Yes, it's not as safe as not going to a restaurant at all, but they are trying to balance mitigating risk while allowing some economic activity. It's a hard problem. The last time I drove through central Washington, I saw crowds of people clustered together at the front of restaurants with no masks on. I don't see that here. People generally stay spread out and wear masks when around strangers. > This sort of pandemic theater is why cases are at an all-time high here This kind of black-and-white "if you aren't being 100% safe you're just doing pandemic theater" rhetoric helps absolutely nothing. > why cases are at an all-time high here. Still better here than in much of the US, despite being the first outbreak, being on lockdown longer than most of the US (and thus with the most pandemic fatigue).
    - 6y ago
freewilly1040 6y ago
My experience on a similar trip was that virus diligence bottomed out in the Dakotas. I went to a restaurant, and their mask warning said something to the effect of "please wear a mask, if you don't we'll assume you have a health condition." Of course, the restaurant was filled to capacity without a mask in sight.
- stronglikedan 6y ago
  > if you don't we'll assume you have a health condition...without a mask in sight. I suppose it was assumed everyone had a mental-health condition.
- kingnothing 6y ago
  You can't wear a mask while eating or drinking. What else did you expect?
pnathan 6y ago
Watching the divergent responses by governors & states who, more generally, trust scientific experts (E.g., Hogan in Maryland, Inslee in WA), vs governors who don't... I'm glad I live in WA. If I lived in one of those other states, I would look for work, then move when I found it. Family ties, whatever; wouldn't matter. It's a clear breakdown of competent government; time to leave for a better place. For myself and even more, my kid. Not particularly related to urban/suburban/rural divides. Nor per se even Dem vs GOP.
phkahler 6y ago
Welcome to Michigan!
chaostheory 6y ago
While the SF Bay Area is much better than most of the country, it's still annoying seeing people here not use masks outside of their homes, or wear them improperly. With masks we can get back to normal relatively quickly, but people just need to wear them
- mattr47 6y ago
  Masks will not allow us to get back to normal more quickly. The only thing that will allow that is immunity through vaccinations. Countries other than the US have implemented strict mask & border controls still do not have a handle on the virus.
  - chaostheory 6y ago
    Studies and data tell us otherwise. https://www.cbsnews.com/news/covid-face-mask-protection-vaccine-cdc-director/ https://www.cbsnews.com/news/covid-face-mask-protection-vacc... https://www.health.com/condition/infectious-diseases/coronavirus/masks-vs-vaccine https://www.health.com/condition/infectious-diseases/coronav... People in Asia, from both what I've seen and what my relatives keep telling me, no longer quarantine or social distance. Case in point: Singapore. They have a larger population than New Zealand yet live on an island that's smaller than NYC. They have virtually no local cases. They all wear masks. btw which country were you referring to that had both mask mandates and strict border controls, and simultaneous are unable to contain it? Doesn't New Zealand has both? They seem to be managing it just fine.
  - sidlls 6y ago
    China doesn't seem to have a covid problem. Now, granted it's difficult to trust their official statements on anything because of how easily they lie thinking everyone else is too stupid to see through it. But I'd think if covid were actually a problem there word would get out eventually. I understand they put some pretty severe restrictions in place initially, though. Probably far too strict for most of us in the west to truly consider. But now they don't need them, and people are more or less living normally.
- xlm1717 6y ago
misiti3780 6y ago
I'm very pro-mask but cases are skyrocketing everywhere, even in countries like France and Italy where masking is the norm. I don't presume to know how to fix the issue, but virologist knew this was going to happen -- it is called seasonal forcing[1]. It's disturbing to me that there are people in the US that dont believe COVID-19 is real (I think you can blame the administration for that), but I'm not sure the spikes are surprising. [1]https://www.researchgate.net/publication/339321846_Impact_of_seasonal_forcing_on_a_potential_SARS-CoV-2_pandemic https://www.researchgate.net/publication/339321846_Impact_of...
- pas 6y ago
  Fixing the issue is easy, even if brutal. Close everything that can be closed. As the weather turned colder people started staying indoors and the conditions for transmitting the disease turned more favorable. (Eg restaurants, etc.) Plus after a critical mass regular (intuitive) precautions are not enough. Eg in France restaurants allowed people to dine if they looked okay, and had a mask on while waiting for a table, and while not actually eating. Clearly this was too lax. (aug 31 https://www.connexionfrance.com/French-news/Masks-in-Paris-rules-for-eating-smoking-and-exercise https://www.connexionfrance.com/French-news/Masks-in-Paris-r... )
- mleonhard 6y ago
  Washington State and Maine also experience seasonal forcing. They started requiring masks in June & July. From FT.com [1], here are the number of new confirmed Covid-19 cases, per million residents, averaged over the last 7 days: - Maine: 130 - Washington State: 230 - Idaho: 740 - Montana: 1000 - South Dakota: 1600 From this data, I conclude that mask use is effective at reducing the spread of covid-19. [1] https://ig.ft.com/coronavirus-chart/?areas=eur&areas=usa&areas=bra&areas=gbr&areasRegional=usme&areasRegional=usmn&areasRegional=ussd&areasRegional=uswa&areasRegional=usid&areasRegional=usmt&byDate=1&cumulative=0&logScale=0&perMillion=1&values=cases https://ig.ft.com/coronavirus-chart/?areas=eur&areas=usa&are...
JaakkoP 6y ago
I had exactly the same experience driving from Baltimore to Seattle this June. There were a good amount of masks in Pennsylvania, but in Ohio and Indiana it was as if pandemic didn't exist. Hotel employees didn't understand my reluctance to squeeze into a small space to pick up a to-go breakfast, and made snarky comments along the lines of "am I far enough for you sir?" Madison, WI was much better, but starting from La Crosse all the way through Minnesota and North Dakota plains it was as if you were living in a different reality.
sdfkkikig 6y ago
"So the surge and issues the comminuties up there are facing don't surprise me in the least." So only communities like that had issues, the others were fine? If so, why don't people just stick to their mask wearing communities and let other people live as they please? Except I don't think it is true, many mask wearing communities and countries still have high rates of infections. I find this really ridiculous, everytime somebody who is critical of the panic catches Covid19, there is the finger pointing and blaming. Meanwhile, most deaths happened in completely different ways, like governors making it spread in nursing homes.
clairity 6y ago
rather than moralizing angrily ('fucks'), why not try to hone in on what you're worried about exactly? were you really in danger? if you'd have focused more on the lack of distancing indoors, that might have been a legitimate concern. but masks are for show in most places, at most times, and your focus on them indicates a retreat to symbolism rather than effect. the primary appeal of masks is for quelling fear and anxiety, not preventing spread. the one common place they would help, the private social gathering, is where they're donned the very least, because masks have strong connotations of mistrust, which is antithetical to socializing. so masks won't save us, no matter how much force is put behind them. even in countries commonly cited for high mask usage, other more primary mitigative measures are what led to propagation control, not masks. masks are marginal. walking through a lobby/store or sitting at a table in a restaurant with your family isn't a significant risk, no matter what the other patrons are doing, as long as there's a little distance between (no, the virus is not floating around in significant concentrations to probabalistically infect you from across the room; it falls to the ground and dies quickly). the only other person you should worry about there is your server, who, out of at least "corporate necessity", will likely be wearing a mask, a decent use of masking as someone who interacts closely with lots of strangers (rather than, say, outside, where they're wasted). this kind of moralizing is not out of a cohesive worry for others, but a divisive fear (anger is a primal reaction to fear). so why are we so fearful and anxious? deconstructing that would be a more fruitful discussion than dwelling so much on the anxiety itself.
- mikelockz 6y ago
  > the primary appeal of masks is for quelling fear and anxiety, not preventing spread. The appeal of masks for me is definitely to lower spread. Yes there is signaling, but also because masks reduce amount of possibly covid-infected droplets expelled from the mouth and nose while breathing and speaking. It is not possible to have a 6 foot bubble around everybody at all times. It is possible to always wear a mask. This is not moralizing, this is science.
  - clairity 6y ago
    that's rationalization, not science. feel free to wear a mask everywhere if it makes you feel better and aligns with your mediosocial affiliations, but the breadth of science show that masks are effective in specific, marginal situations, not everywhere, and that its population-level effects are drowned out by other, better mitigations.
kev_da_dev 6y ago
When are we going to stop playing the blame game in regards to COVID? When it's cases in middle America surging, observers are "not surprised". How can this comment be taken as anything but scorn and disdain for rural Americans? It's repugnant. Where was this same sentiment when places like NYC were getting swamped with Covid? Anyone? I'm so damn tired of this holier-than-thou approach to COVID, and life in general. It gets nobody anywhere, except for making the person casting aspersions feel better than the ones they're looking down on. If anything, this pandemic sure has made people show their true colors. Always a good thing, I suppose
- Rexxar 6y ago
  I'm not American and I don't live in USA. But when a communication center with high density of population is infected at the beginning of a new epidemic it's quite logical this happening. When the pandemic expand to low density areas 6/7 months later when we know a lot of ways to reduce the contaminations, it's not normal this is hapenning.
  - kev_da_dev 6y ago
    The entire western world is getting blasted by the 2nd wave of the pandemic. Germany, France, the UK, Spain, Italy. The list goes on & on. Please explain to me how this is "not normal"
- robertoandred 6y ago
  The sentiment was everywhere. Rural and suburban areas thinking that NYC deserved it and that it just couldn't happen where they were. And then they refused the fruits of the lessons learned in New York because it just couldn't happen where they were.
  - kev_da_dev 6y ago
    People want to complain about the polarization of middle america, but it's mostly BS. What you see online or on the news is not at all indicative of these areas. By that, I mean, these areas are not swarming with people who "refused the fruits of the lessons" of NYC and other places. And I've met VERY few, if any, who thought that NY et. al somehow deserved the pandemic spread. Where are you getting this information from, if you don't mind me asking? I'm not sure where you're getting your facts from, but I've been travelling all throughout the MidWest and the South for work this past year. Most people are plenty concerned about Covid, wear masks, etc. It's a highly contagious disease that no country, except for a very select few, have gotten under control in any way. Once again, I think the country would be a lot better if we just stopped pointing fingers like this.
pmiller2 6y ago
I had the exact same experience on a trip to Tahoe a few months ago. My girlfriend and I needed to get away, so, we booked a hotel and just stayed in for the weekend. We didn't see one single other person wearing a mask who wasn't some sort of restaurant server. We got our food to go.
nemoniac 6y ago
Is there any correlation between mask-wearing areas and Biden/Trump voting patterns? I'd be very interested to see someone pull up the data.
onecommentman 6y ago
Deaths per capita from COVID for the States you referred to, as reported by State health sites mid November 2020: Nevada: 1 in 1600 Utah: 1 in 4500 Montana: 1 in 2200 North Dakota: 1 in 1300 Minnesota: (outside of the 7 county Twin Cities) 1 in 3700 Michigan: (outside of Detroit area) 1 in 3600 In comparison Where you moved from (Orange County CA) 1 in 2000 Where you moved to (Michigan/Detroit area Wayne/Detroit City/Oakland/Macomb) 1 in 350, not 1 in 3500, that’s one in three hundred and fifty. If you moved to someplace six times deadlier (from a COVID standpoint), I’m guessing you have bigger problems to worry about than the COVID public health posture of those States you travelled through...
- scarmig 6y ago
  Implicit in your comment is the assumption that places that have had the highest death rates so far have more to worry about than places that have had the lowest death rates so far.
  - AnimalMuppet 6y ago
    We got here by whalesalad complaining about people that don't wear masks. What's the point of masks? To slow the spread of the disease. So unless you've got some reason to think that death rates per infection are radically higher in Detroit than anywhere else along the route, then death rates are a somewhat-imperfect-but-still-somewhat-useful proxy for infection rates. And therefore your comment is pretty pointless. If Detroit is doing worse about preventing infection than all these places that aren't using masks, then being there for the next month is probably going to be worse than passing through all those non-mask-using places for a week or two. (Unless you have reason to think that Detroit not only reached herd immunity, but did so long enough ago that people aren't currently contagious there. But if you think that, I'd like to see your data. More, I'd like to see why you think that about Detroit but not about the non-mask-using-and-therefore-presumably-spreading hinterlands.)
    - shaftway 6y ago
      Unrelated, but I can't help it. I assume "whalesalad" was a bad autocorrect that was meant to be "wholesale". But since most autocorrects learn from your past typing, I'm really curious what opportunity you had in the past to use the term "whalesalad".

posix_compliant 6y ago

Weird, I moved from SF to Philadelphia last week and most stores on route 80 required masks.

deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
andy318 6y ago
How is the move working out for you, btw?
- whalesalad 6y ago
  they're posix compliant so I would imagine they can colo anywhere lol
- jeffbezos982134 6y ago
  I have lived in Philadelphia for almost 8 years now and it’s making less and less sense to live here. City taxes are high, housing prices are steadily increasing, making changes to property is an expensive, bureaucratic nightmare, parking is a nightmare, etc. There aren’t (m)any good places to work that pay well enough to justify the taxes and cost of living. The winter is cold and dreary, the summer is humid. If not for covid it would make a lot more sense to live in Boston or NYC. I’m interested in moving to South Carolina or Florida.
  - dang 6y ago
    Please don't use other people's real names in your HN username - it's a distraction and ultimately a subtle form of trolling (even if you don't mean it to be). If you'd like to use this account with a different name, we can change it for you - just email hn@ycombinator.com with the new name. https://hn.algolia.com/?sort=byDate&dateRange=all&type=comment&storyText=false&prefix=true&page=0&query=by:dang%20trollish%20username https://hn.algolia.com/?sort=byDate&dateRange=all&type=comme...
  - randcraw 6y ago
    If you want to live in SC or FL, Philly was never the right place for you. The city exemplifies all classic east coast metropolii; it's vertical, industrial, impatient, no-nonsense and in-your-face. Having lived here for 15 years I've seen Philly offer a little bit of everything, from cultured worldliness to provincial naval gazing. And all of it happens at an urban breakneck speed the east coast is rightly famous for. Philly, Boston, and NYC are kith and kin (esp. politically), and have much more in common with SF than do SC or non-urban FL. There the tempo of life is slower and more formal, like their danse de rigueur, the gavotte.

tedmcory77 6y ago

A few weeks ago we drove from Hendersonville, NC (by Asheville) down through South Carolina and Georgia. We were the only folks in gas stations wearing masks, and received a few chuckles when people saw us wearing them. Your comment of feeling like an outsider alien really resonates.

davek01 6y ago
That's funny because I'm from SC and Hendersonville was the first place I felt that was too lax in social distancing this summer. In 2 different restaurants (Pop's Diner and Flat Rock Wood Room) parties were sat at tables adjacent to ours. I actually had to check to see if NC had any sort of restrictions in place. Anecdotally, I would say that mask adoption in SC where I live is ~65-70% but even in places where I was in the minority for wearing a mask I've never seen a smirk or a chuckle and definitely haven't felt alienated.
- neltnerb 6y ago
  No matter where you are there will be some fraction of people who are children about it. I'm in Boston and friends have had people yell in their faces about how they're stupid for worrying about it (home depot) and I've personally had people drive by and feel the need to bother shouting out their window about how my mask is gay. To be fair, my mask has lovely periwinkle patterns and I am gay, but that's a lot of effort they're putting into getting attention and obviously comes from deep seated issues with their own masculinity that aren't my problem. Nonetheless they have been the exception rather than the rule, so it may be good to assume the best unless someone is actually accosting you. I've noticed there is a strong tendency for people to assume that a stranger's gaze is antagonistic when in reality they barely register you are there. It is hard to not be extra sensitive to these things when you are a minority, I guess honestly a lot of people are learning what that feels like for the first time.
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throwaway0a5e 6y ago
I don't think using a gas station as your benchmark is fair. I live in what is literally the bluest state if the per county election maps are to be believed. Nobody wears masks at the gas stations unless you're going inside. Mask compliance is practically 100% inside.

Claudus 6y ago

Out of curiosity, what is your basis for wearing a mask?

jasonlaramburu 6y ago
Common sense?
whalesalad 6y ago
Even if 10 years from now we discover that wearing a mask was a completely pointless endeavor .... the cost of wearing a mask is SO LOW that it is worth doing it. But it is scientifically proven to limit the rate of the spread, which is the least I can do to protect myself and those around me. I don't care if I get covid ... I don't think it will kill me based on my vitals. However, we don't fully understand the long term physical and mental health implications of having it (both neurological and psychological), we don't understand it from a 'pre-existing condition' standpoint, and hey who knows it could hit me like a train and do me serious harm or kill me. Plus, I would like to further the goal of eliminating the virus entirely, and not spreading it to others helps that. I can't believe there are still people out there clamoring to the idea that there is any other way.
- Claudus 6y ago
  Scientifically proven to limit the rate of spread? Are you sure about that? Do you think COVID is airborne? Do you think saliva droplets large enough to collect on the mask are “airborne”? Do you think saliva carries viral particles? Do you think breathing through a saliva saturated mask can cause those viral particles to become airborne? If someone with COVID sneezed into a handkerchief and then draped it over a small fan to dry, would you be comfortable sitting in front of it? Can wearing a mask improperly increase the chance of spreading COVID? What percentage of people wear their masks properly? What new evidence or scientific studies were presented that caused the switch from “no, don’t wear masks” to “yes, do wear masks”? What does it say about the reasoning behind beliefs when people feel the need to downvote someone for questioning them?
- drcross 6y ago

pwinnski 6y ago

I spent a weekend in Oklahoma last month (October 10-11), and was unable to enjoy myself because so few people were wearing masks, observing anything like distancing, etc. I saw a Carls Jr. employee wearing a corporate-supplied t-shirt that used "maskhole" to describe anyone not wearing a mask... and he was not wearing a mask, just like all the other employees. The hotel itself was the only place that seemed to be taking the pandemic seriously, so we retreated there, ate takeout, and left early. The current spike in Oklahoma[0] does not surprise me at all. 0. https://mackuba.eu/corona/#oklahoma_united_states.daily?trend=7 https://mackuba.eu/corona/#oklahoma_united_states.daily?tren...

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mrosett 6y ago

It depends quite a bit on where you are in any particular state. We did a similar move in May and I found that rural gas stations had close to zero mask usage, but in any larger city people were wearing masks. Some tourist hotspots (e.g. Moab) also have good mask compliance, perhaps because local businesses are desperate to avoid a full shutdown. FWIW, I live in Utah, and in my urban neighborhood I actually see very good mask compliance. Further into the suburbs adherence drops.

dharmab 6y ago
It _really_ drops off at the county line between Salt Lake and Utah counties.

michaelbuckbee 6y ago

If you'd like to see an absolutely terrifying map go to: https://www.covidexitstrategy.org/ https://www.covidexitstrategy.org/ and scroll down to the "Can Our Health System Handle the Spread?" and look at the concentric rings of new infections/million radiating out of North and South Dakota. This lines up very well with the parent comment's observations.

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padseeker 6y ago

I live in Chicago, and masks are the norm everywhere. Definitely indoors, and to a lesser degree outdoors. We rented a house in Wisconsin for a weekend in the fall, and culturally there was a big difference. Went to pick up a pizza and the outdoor patio was packed, drinking beer and watching college football. There were some people wearing masks, but it was not the norm. We were definitely in the minority.

randycupertino 6y ago
I have family in rural Wisconsin and she wanted to buy masks and couldn't even find anywhere local to buy some. I ended up buying her a bunch in California and shipping them to her.

dharmab 6y ago

Last time I had to hit the road, I noticed that the social distancing/mask wearing travelers were avoiding towns and eating/relaxing at highway rest stops.

cltby 6y ago

Given that we're seeing the same spike in our big, coastal metro areas, perhaps the problem is more complicated than rural attitudes towards Covid. [0] https://outbreak.info/epidemiology?location=METRO_42660%3BMETRO_14460%3BMETRO_35620%3BMETRO_31080%3BMETRO_41860&log=false&variable=confirmed_numIncrease&xVariable=date&fixedY=false&percapita=false https://outbreak.info/epidemiology?location=METRO_42660%3BME...

cure 6y ago
> Given that we're seeing the same spike in our big, coastal metro areas When taking the differences in total population and population density into account, the spikes in sparsely populated states like OK are nothing like the spikes in densely populated states like NY.
bryanlarsen 6y ago
NY: 231 cases per million SD: 1609 cases per million https://www.covidexitstrategy.org/ https://www.covidexitstrategy.org/
- casefields 6y ago
  Cuomo already culled a vast portion of their weakest members. Of course they're are doing alright now. High five, I guess.

matz1 6y ago

>Heading through Vegas, Utah >When I say no fucks were given - I mean that pretty much no one around me cared about wearing a mask, social distancing, etc Good to hear, plan to visit these places soon. The risk is worth it.

coding123 6y ago

It's actually the state governments that's at fault here. Not the specifically the people. Let me tell you I was in back-country Oregon recently, some of the MOST republican places within Oregon, not going to name drop the county. Anyway, the Oregon state government is very much democratic (cause you know Portland). But because of that, even the republican counties are under a mask order. And the extremely red counties, people are actually wearing masks all over the place. Grocery stores even are employing someone to just stand there and either hand a cheapy surg. mask or tell them to put one on. So what I'm saying is that regardless of what people WANT to do, the state has the power and push to get people to do it. And this is why we need Biden in office yesterday.

Impashin 6y ago
> the state has the power and push to get people to do it > this is why we need Biden in office You know Biden is running for national office, right? Not state government?
- coding123 6y ago
  Well, start with this: https://www.cnn.com/2020/11/01/politics/mask-mandate-fact-check/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2020/11/01/politics/mask-mandate-fact-ch...
  - Impashin 6y ago
    This article demonstrates that the federal government does not (and should not) have the power to act in this manner. CNN found a single law professor who stated this: > "I don't think that the statute can be read broadly enough to apply to all people merely moving on an interstate highway," Blackman said. "Once you go beyond people in federal facilities, you're really intruding on what the state's responsible for." At best, they can cover Federal buildings with a policy. That is it.
    - gamblor956 6y ago
      Your comment proves the article's point. In the entire country, they could only find a single professor to say that the federal government doesn't have the power to issue a mask-mandate for occupants of vehicles on interstate highways. Given that these roadways in question are interstate the federal government's power to regulate activity thereon is assumed as the power to regulate interstate commerce is one of the constitutionally enumerated powers of the federal government.

munificent 6y ago

Meanwhile, here I am in the "anarchist jurisdiction" of Seattle and 90%+ of the people I see are wearing masks, socially distancing, and taking the scientific authorities seriously.

cltby 6y ago
I'm in Seattle too. The local health guidelines suggest that it's safe to: 1. Put on a mask before going outside 2. Stroll to your local favorite restaurant 3. Get a table indoors 4. Remove the mask 5. Socialize Some rural citizens are skipping steps 1 and 4, but Science only confers protection from covid when all the steps are followed. This sort of pandemic theater is why cases are at an all-time high here. The 90%+ are not being very well served by their scientific authorities.
- disgruntledphd2 6y ago
  Yeah, the whole eating and drinking in public places inside is definitely not a good idea with respect to Covid.
- munificent 6y ago
  > 3. Get a table indoors Keep in mind that restaurants are at significantly reduced capacity and those tables are now more widely spread apart. These guidelines mean you are much less likely to share airspace with strangers. Yes, it's not as safe as not going to a restaurant at all, but they are trying to balance mitigating risk while allowing some economic activity. It's a hard problem. The last time I drove through central Washington, I saw crowds of people clustered together at the front of restaurants with no masks on. I don't see that here. People generally stay spread out and wear masks when around strangers. > This sort of pandemic theater is why cases are at an all-time high here This kind of black-and-white "if you aren't being 100% safe you're just doing pandemic theater" rhetoric helps absolutely nothing. > why cases are at an all-time high here. Still better here than in much of the US, despite being the first outbreak, being on lockdown longer than most of the US (and thus with the most pandemic fatigue).
  - 6y ago

freewilly1040 6y ago

My experience on a similar trip was that virus diligence bottomed out in the Dakotas. I went to a restaurant, and their mask warning said something to the effect of "please wear a mask, if you don't we'll assume you have a health condition." Of course, the restaurant was filled to capacity without a mask in sight.

stronglikedan 6y ago
> if you don't we'll assume you have a health condition...without a mask in sight. I suppose it was assumed everyone had a mental-health condition.
kingnothing 6y ago
You can't wear a mask while eating or drinking. What else did you expect?

pnathan 6y ago

Watching the divergent responses by governors & states who, more generally, trust scientific experts (E.g., Hogan in Maryland, Inslee in WA), vs governors who don't... I'm glad I live in WA. If I lived in one of those other states, I would look for work, then move when I found it. Family ties, whatever; wouldn't matter. It's a clear breakdown of competent government; time to leave for a better place. For myself and even more, my kid. Not particularly related to urban/suburban/rural divides. Nor per se even Dem vs GOP.

phkahler 6y ago

Welcome to Michigan!

chaostheory 6y ago

While the SF Bay Area is much better than most of the country, it's still annoying seeing people here not use masks outside of their homes, or wear them improperly. With masks we can get back to normal relatively quickly, but people just need to wear them

mattr47 6y ago
Masks will not allow us to get back to normal more quickly. The only thing that will allow that is immunity through vaccinations. Countries other than the US have implemented strict mask & border controls still do not have a handle on the virus.
- chaostheory 6y ago
  Studies and data tell us otherwise. https://www.cbsnews.com/news/covid-face-mask-protection-vaccine-cdc-director/ https://www.cbsnews.com/news/covid-face-mask-protection-vacc... https://www.health.com/condition/infectious-diseases/coronavirus/masks-vs-vaccine https://www.health.com/condition/infectious-diseases/coronav... People in Asia, from both what I've seen and what my relatives keep telling me, no longer quarantine or social distance. Case in point: Singapore. They have a larger population than New Zealand yet live on an island that's smaller than NYC. They have virtually no local cases. They all wear masks. btw which country were you referring to that had both mask mandates and strict border controls, and simultaneous are unable to contain it? Doesn't New Zealand has both? They seem to be managing it just fine.
- sidlls 6y ago
  China doesn't seem to have a covid problem. Now, granted it's difficult to trust their official statements on anything because of how easily they lie thinking everyone else is too stupid to see through it. But I'd think if covid were actually a problem there word would get out eventually. I understand they put some pretty severe restrictions in place initially, though. Probably far too strict for most of us in the west to truly consider. But now they don't need them, and people are more or less living normally.
xlm1717 6y ago

misiti3780 6y ago

I'm very pro-mask but cases are skyrocketing everywhere, even in countries like France and Italy where masking is the norm. I don't presume to know how to fix the issue, but virologist knew this was going to happen -- it is called seasonal forcing[1]. It's disturbing to me that there are people in the US that dont believe COVID-19 is real (I think you can blame the administration for that), but I'm not sure the spikes are surprising. [1]https://www.researchgate.net/publication/339321846_Impact_of_seasonal_forcing_on_a_potential_SARS-CoV-2_pandemic https://www.researchgate.net/publication/339321846_Impact_of...

pas 6y ago
Fixing the issue is easy, even if brutal. Close everything that can be closed. As the weather turned colder people started staying indoors and the conditions for transmitting the disease turned more favorable. (Eg restaurants, etc.) Plus after a critical mass regular (intuitive) precautions are not enough. Eg in France restaurants allowed people to dine if they looked okay, and had a mask on while waiting for a table, and while not actually eating. Clearly this was too lax. (aug 31 https://www.connexionfrance.com/French-news/Masks-in-Paris-rules-for-eating-smoking-and-exercise https://www.connexionfrance.com/French-news/Masks-in-Paris-r... )
mleonhard 6y ago
Washington State and Maine also experience seasonal forcing. They started requiring masks in June & July. From FT.com [1], here are the number of new confirmed Covid-19 cases, per million residents, averaged over the last 7 days: - Maine: 130 - Washington State: 230 - Idaho: 740 - Montana: 1000 - South Dakota: 1600 From this data, I conclude that mask use is effective at reducing the spread of covid-19. [1] https://ig.ft.com/coronavirus-chart/?areas=eur&areas=usa&areas=bra&areas=gbr&areasRegional=usme&areasRegional=usmn&areasRegional=ussd&areasRegional=uswa&areasRegional=usid&areasRegional=usmt&byDate=1&cumulative=0&logScale=0&perMillion=1&values=cases https://ig.ft.com/coronavirus-chart/?areas=eur&areas=usa&are...

JaakkoP 6y ago

I had exactly the same experience driving from Baltimore to Seattle this June. There were a good amount of masks in Pennsylvania, but in Ohio and Indiana it was as if pandemic didn't exist. Hotel employees didn't understand my reluctance to squeeze into a small space to pick up a to-go breakfast, and made snarky comments along the lines of "am I far enough for you sir?" Madison, WI was much better, but starting from La Crosse all the way through Minnesota and North Dakota plains it was as if you were living in a different reality.

sdfkkikig 6y ago

"So the surge and issues the comminuties up there are facing don't surprise me in the least." So only communities like that had issues, the others were fine? If so, why don't people just stick to their mask wearing communities and let other people live as they please? Except I don't think it is true, many mask wearing communities and countries still have high rates of infections. I find this really ridiculous, everytime somebody who is critical of the panic catches Covid19, there is the finger pointing and blaming. Meanwhile, most deaths happened in completely different ways, like governors making it spread in nursing homes.

clairity 6y ago

rather than moralizing angrily ('fucks'), why not try to hone in on what you're worried about exactly? were you really in danger? if you'd have focused more on the lack of distancing indoors, that might have been a legitimate concern. but masks are for show in most places, at most times, and your focus on them indicates a retreat to symbolism rather than effect. the primary appeal of masks is for quelling fear and anxiety, not preventing spread. the one common place they would help, the private social gathering, is where they're donned the very least, because masks have strong connotations of mistrust, which is antithetical to socializing. so masks won't save us, no matter how much force is put behind them. even in countries commonly cited for high mask usage, other more primary mitigative measures are what led to propagation control, not masks. masks are marginal. walking through a lobby/store or sitting at a table in a restaurant with your family isn't a significant risk, no matter what the other patrons are doing, as long as there's a little distance between (no, the virus is not floating around in significant concentrations to probabalistically infect you from across the room; it falls to the ground and dies quickly). the only other person you should worry about there is your server, who, out of at least "corporate necessity", will likely be wearing a mask, a decent use of masking as someone who interacts closely with lots of strangers (rather than, say, outside, where they're wasted). this kind of moralizing is not out of a cohesive worry for others, but a divisive fear (anger is a primal reaction to fear). so why are we so fearful and anxious? deconstructing that would be a more fruitful discussion than dwelling so much on the anxiety itself.

mikelockz 6y ago
> the primary appeal of masks is for quelling fear and anxiety, not preventing spread. The appeal of masks for me is definitely to lower spread. Yes there is signaling, but also because masks reduce amount of possibly covid-infected droplets expelled from the mouth and nose while breathing and speaking. It is not possible to have a 6 foot bubble around everybody at all times. It is possible to always wear a mask. This is not moralizing, this is science.
- clairity 6y ago
  that's rationalization, not science. feel free to wear a mask everywhere if it makes you feel better and aligns with your mediosocial affiliations, but the breadth of science show that masks are effective in specific, marginal situations, not everywhere, and that its population-level effects are drowned out by other, better mitigations.

kev_da_dev 6y ago

When are we going to stop playing the blame game in regards to COVID? When it's cases in middle America surging, observers are "not surprised". How can this comment be taken as anything but scorn and disdain for rural Americans? It's repugnant. Where was this same sentiment when places like NYC were getting swamped with Covid? Anyone? I'm so damn tired of this holier-than-thou approach to COVID, and life in general. It gets nobody anywhere, except for making the person casting aspersions feel better than the ones they're looking down on. If anything, this pandemic sure has made people show their true colors. Always a good thing, I suppose

Rexxar 6y ago
I'm not American and I don't live in USA. But when a communication center with high density of population is infected at the beginning of a new epidemic it's quite logical this happening. When the pandemic expand to low density areas 6/7 months later when we know a lot of ways to reduce the contaminations, it's not normal this is hapenning.
- kev_da_dev 6y ago
  The entire western world is getting blasted by the 2nd wave of the pandemic. Germany, France, the UK, Spain, Italy. The list goes on & on. Please explain to me how this is "not normal"
robertoandred 6y ago
The sentiment was everywhere. Rural and suburban areas thinking that NYC deserved it and that it just couldn't happen where they were. And then they refused the fruits of the lessons learned in New York because it just couldn't happen where they were.
- kev_da_dev 6y ago
  People want to complain about the polarization of middle america, but it's mostly BS. What you see online or on the news is not at all indicative of these areas. By that, I mean, these areas are not swarming with people who "refused the fruits of the lessons" of NYC and other places. And I've met VERY few, if any, who thought that NY et. al somehow deserved the pandemic spread. Where are you getting this information from, if you don't mind me asking? I'm not sure where you're getting your facts from, but I've been travelling all throughout the MidWest and the South for work this past year. Most people are plenty concerned about Covid, wear masks, etc. It's a highly contagious disease that no country, except for a very select few, have gotten under control in any way. Once again, I think the country would be a lot better if we just stopped pointing fingers like this.

pmiller2 6y ago

I had the exact same experience on a trip to Tahoe a few months ago. My girlfriend and I needed to get away, so, we booked a hotel and just stayed in for the weekend. We didn't see one single other person wearing a mask who wasn't some sort of restaurant server. We got our food to go.

nemoniac 6y ago

Is there any correlation between mask-wearing areas and Biden/Trump voting patterns? I'd be very interested to see someone pull up the data.

onecommentman 6y ago

Deaths per capita from COVID for the States you referred to, as reported by State health sites mid November 2020: Nevada: 1 in 1600 Utah: 1 in 4500 Montana: 1 in 2200 North Dakota: 1 in 1300 Minnesota: (outside of the 7 county Twin Cities) 1 in 3700 Michigan: (outside of Detroit area) 1 in 3600 In comparison Where you moved from (Orange County CA) 1 in 2000 Where you moved to (Michigan/Detroit area Wayne/Detroit City/Oakland/Macomb) 1 in 350, not 1 in 3500, that’s one in three hundred and fifty. If you moved to someplace six times deadlier (from a COVID standpoint), I’m guessing you have bigger problems to worry about than the COVID public health posture of those States you travelled through...

scarmig 6y ago
Implicit in your comment is the assumption that places that have had the highest death rates so far have more to worry about than places that have had the lowest death rates so far.
- AnimalMuppet 6y ago
  We got here by whalesalad complaining about people that don't wear masks. What's the point of masks? To slow the spread of the disease. So unless you've got some reason to think that death rates per infection are radically higher in Detroit than anywhere else along the route, then death rates are a somewhat-imperfect-but-still-somewhat-useful proxy for infection rates. And therefore your comment is pretty pointless. If Detroit is doing worse about preventing infection than all these places that aren't using masks, then being there for the next month is probably going to be worse than passing through all those non-mask-using places for a week or two. (Unless you have reason to think that Detroit not only reached herd immunity, but did so long enough ago that people aren't currently contagious there. But if you think that, I'd like to see your data. More, I'd like to see why you think that about Detroit but not about the non-mask-using-and-therefore-presumably-spreading hinterlands.)
  - shaftway 6y ago
    Unrelated, but I can't help it. I assume "whalesalad" was a bad autocorrect that was meant to be "wholesale". But since most autocorrects learn from your past typing, I'm really curious what opportunity you had in the past to use the term "whalesalad".