7 ms·

>Sadly, though inspired, I think Swing's LookAndFeel plumbing proved unnecessary. Sun believed everyone who said it mattered. It maybe it did for a while. But t

by R0b0t1 6y ago

>Sadly, though inspired, I think Swing's LookAndFeel plumbing proved unnecessary. Sun believed everyone who said it mattered. It maybe it did for a while. But the world moved on. I still have no firm opinions on how I'd make an app reskinnable. (I should probably look to see what Qt's doing these days.) Well, if they didn't bake LookAndFeel in from the start, all of the work would fall on the application developer to manage these things. Having had to look into doing this the way they chose is the best way, what most people have a problem with is the UI didn't look fully native on most platforms for a long time.

specialist 6y ago
Agreed. I guess what I'm alluding to is something like CSS for desktop apps. I tried to tweak stock L&F a few times (not my choice) and I mostly failed. Back in the day, there was a guy, Sven?, that crafted amazing L&Fs. I dimly recall he had one that was easily customized.
- cmiles74 6y ago
  I remember Karsten Lentzch working in this space on the JGoodies project. I used some of his custom look-and-feels in a couple of projects... I think the had some tools to make layout easier as well. http://www.jgoodies.com/home/about/ http://www.jgoodies.com/home/about/
  - specialist 6y ago
    Bingo! Thank you.
- tpxl 6y ago
  > I guess what I'm alluding to is something like CSS for desktop apps. JavaFX supports CSS styling.
  - specialist 6y ago
    Right you are. Wiki says since 1.2. It looks pretty good. I just spotted JavaFX Script. Huh. This is almost directionally correct. So of course it got killed. If you're curious what The Correct Answer™ is, imagine VRML-97 reimplemented using JavaFX Script like syntax. Its wiki has a link to the Curl (programming language). That syntax is also directionally correct. But is also missing most of VRML's semantics. There's also a link to the F3 programming language, aka "form fits function". Great slogan. Alas. Looks like a misunderstanding of Conal Elliot's Fran functional reactive programming language. Oh well. Thanks for the tip. JavaFX's Script w/ CSS was about 1/2 the solution. Maybe someday someone will loop back and harvest the good bits.
- ptx 6y ago
  Didn't they introduce something like that with the Synth look and feel[1] in Java 7? Although with more XML. [1] https://docs.oracle.com/javase/tutorial/uiswing/lookandfeel/synth.html https://docs.oracle.com/javase/tutorial/uiswing/lookandfeel/...
mmm_grayons 6y ago
Honest question: can someone explain the focus a lot of the HN crowd seems to have on "native"-looking UI? I've used plenty of applications that don't look "native" and it doesn't bother me. Is there a reason to prefer it? I get that performance can be an advantage, but one can easily write a very performant application using something like Skia, or doing one's own GPU acceleration, without having any native look.
- Bjartr 6y ago
  If an app follows the UI conventions of the system it is running on, there is less cognitive overhead for users. However, with the rise of web apps users have at least become a little more used to interacting with a variety of UIs, though the problem is not entirely eliminated.
  - specialist 6y ago
    True. Main benefit to me is deflecting spurious input. All that Drive By Management. Instead of explaining the history of ergonomics, the philosophy of ethnography, and our reams of data from usability testing, I'd just point at Apple's Human Interface Guidelines. Like name dropping Aristotle in debate class. More serious actors will try harder, lean in.
  - Daishiman 6y ago
    We've also eliminated a ton of crappy UI conventions and settled on some common paradigms in all platforms. I remember the four-layer-deep right-click context menus and I kinda shudder now. There were also some really good ideas that I wish had caught on (I was a huge fan of focus-follows-mouse and I still use the X select-into-clipboard), but the general uniformity of UI patters nowadays is very much calming.
    - nitrogen 6y ago
      I really like the context menus in GIMP. Much less mouse travel than trying to hit the top of the window or screen.
- 6y ago

by R0b0t1 6y ago

specialist 6y ago

Agreed. I guess what I'm alluding to is something like CSS for desktop apps. I tried to tweak stock L&F a few times (not my choice) and I mostly failed. Back in the day, there was a guy, Sven?, that crafted amazing L&Fs. I dimly recall he had one that was easily customized.

cmiles74 6y ago
I remember Karsten Lentzch working in this space on the JGoodies project. I used some of his custom look-and-feels in a couple of projects... I think the had some tools to make layout easier as well. http://www.jgoodies.com/home/about/ http://www.jgoodies.com/home/about/
- specialist 6y ago
  Bingo! Thank you.
tpxl 6y ago
> I guess what I'm alluding to is something like CSS for desktop apps. JavaFX supports CSS styling.
- specialist 6y ago
  Right you are. Wiki says since 1.2. It looks pretty good. I just spotted JavaFX Script. Huh. This is almost directionally correct. So of course it got killed. If you're curious what The Correct Answer™ is, imagine VRML-97 reimplemented using JavaFX Script like syntax. Its wiki has a link to the Curl (programming language). That syntax is also directionally correct. But is also missing most of VRML's semantics. There's also a link to the F3 programming language, aka "form fits function". Great slogan. Alas. Looks like a misunderstanding of Conal Elliot's Fran functional reactive programming language. Oh well. Thanks for the tip. JavaFX's Script w/ CSS was about 1/2 the solution. Maybe someday someone will loop back and harvest the good bits.
ptx 6y ago
Didn't they introduce something like that with the Synth look and feel[1] in Java 7? Although with more XML. [1] https://docs.oracle.com/javase/tutorial/uiswing/lookandfeel/synth.html https://docs.oracle.com/javase/tutorial/uiswing/lookandfeel/...

mmm_grayons 6y ago

Honest question: can someone explain the focus a lot of the HN crowd seems to have on "native"-looking UI? I've used plenty of applications that don't look "native" and it doesn't bother me. Is there a reason to prefer it? I get that performance can be an advantage, but one can easily write a very performant application using something like Skia, or doing one's own GPU acceleration, without having any native look.

Bjartr 6y ago
If an app follows the UI conventions of the system it is running on, there is less cognitive overhead for users. However, with the rise of web apps users have at least become a little more used to interacting with a variety of UIs, though the problem is not entirely eliminated.
- specialist 6y ago
  True. Main benefit to me is deflecting spurious input. All that Drive By Management. Instead of explaining the history of ergonomics, the philosophy of ethnography, and our reams of data from usability testing, I'd just point at Apple's Human Interface Guidelines. Like name dropping Aristotle in debate class. More serious actors will try harder, lean in.
- Daishiman 6y ago
  We've also eliminated a ton of crappy UI conventions and settled on some common paradigms in all platforms. I remember the four-layer-deep right-click context menus and I kinda shudder now. There were also some really good ideas that I wish had caught on (I was a huge fan of focus-follows-mouse and I still use the X select-into-clipboard), but the general uniformity of UI patters nowadays is very much calming.
  - nitrogen 6y ago
    I really like the context menus in GIMP. Much less mouse travel than trying to hit the top of the window or screen.
6y ago