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> And you'll create a business model for all sorts of more efficient technologies. And you'll make green energy pay for itself so quickly everyone will be inst

> And you'll create a business model for all sorts of more efficient technologies. And you'll make green energy pay for itself so quickly everyone will be installing it. History doesn't agree with your view, if anything it creates a perverse market wherein people who benefit from the status quo pay people who don't in order to skirt their supposed environmental responsibilities and commitments as they continue as they did before. Just look at the Carbon Credit model and the relationship Tesla had with the big auto manufactures [0]. > As a spokesman for Fiat Chrysler said: “Until demand catches up with regulatory requirements, and there is regulatory relief, we will use credits as appropriate.” I worked for VW during Diesel gate, and I can tell you that this is standard operational procedure for the Industry and what made me quit in utter disgust. It will not change course unless dire, existential consequences are imminent. And it has to be more severe than what Diesel-gate cost VW. You could argue this gave Tesla a lifeline that it otherwise wouldn't have had during its early years after the original Roadster was released and they were working on the Model S, but those are tertiary effects at best and consequential more than anything. In short, no, nothing seems to indicate that is what occurs when you allow the State to create such a system as it will always allow for exemptions if their is profit to be made. Making individual people at these corps responsible for things like Ecocide and have the dire consequences (actual prison time) for the infractions multi national corps currently get out of with political bribes (campaign contributions and fundraising) and lobbying would be a much better start. Some VW execs got thrown in jail and VAG lost ~$12 billion from diesel gate, and yet the brand gained Market share in certain emerging markets that offset those losses. Incidentally, many other manufactures (Ford, Subaru, Mazda, Yamaha, Suzuki, Mitsubishi, Nissan-Renault, Harley Davidson) were all caught cheating emissions as well and weren't nearly as punished in the US. In fact Nissan was able to purchase Mitsubishi Motors US outright in the midst of the VW fall out with no scandal. 0: https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2020/jan/14/why-greenhouse-gas-credits-dont-help-the-environme/ https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2020/jan/14/why-greenho...

leoedin 6y ago
Well, yes, if you make all sorts of exemptions then businesses will pursue those. That's the state of carbon trading today. I'm advocating for a clear, non-negotiable tax on fossil fuels. If carbon leaves the ground (therefore entering the ecosystem), a fee is paid. It needs to be relatively high, otherwise it won't drive change. It changes how people make decisions through the entire economy. If you're deciding whether to build renewables + a battery or build a gas power plant, the economics look very different when your fuel comes with a large carbon fee. If you're deciding whether to buy in internal combustion engine car or an electric one, the economics are very different when the cost of gas is high because of the carbon fee. You look at the other options, or drive less. Less carbon enters the ecosystem. Ultimately corporations sell people what they want. People buy SUVs because they're comfortable, and because the extra cost of gas is marginal. If that gas cost 2x or 3x as much, those purchasing decisions would be different. We know they would, because they have been in the past. Both the 1970s and 2008 oil price shocks saw changing consumer behaviour - a move towards more efficient cars and less miles driven. If we're going to get a grip on carbon emissions, we need to price fossil fuels to represent their true cost.
scatters 6y ago
> those are tertiary effects at best and consequential more than anything Those tertiary effects are the entire point of using the market to transmit policy. They work; the market works. > Making individual people at these corps responsible [...] would be a much better start. Some VW execs got thrown in jail [...] yet the brand gained Market share in certain emerging markets that offset those losses. It sounds like putting people in jail doesn't work?
- Melting_Harps 6y ago
  > Those tertiary effects are the entire point of using the market to transmit policy. They work; the market works. You do realize Tesla was on the brink of death long before the the first Carbon Credit was sold in 2012? There was a real possibility that Tesla would have never made it to get to that point were it not for the external investments, Elon's own money and the DOE's loan that made it possible to make that possible for them to survive long enough to be able to be in that position to do so. Markets may work for many aspects as a medium to achieve desirable ends, and are definitely better than State involvement, but despite being a self professed Anarcho-Capitalist with a massive Agorist and Environmentalist bend I'm not convinced that Market forces alone are able to address the damage we have collectively inflicted as Species to the Environment. Actions have to have consequences for something so dire and if prison and fund seizure is widely accepted and used as a deterrent for the most heinous of crimes in Society for the Private Citizen then it must also apply to the State, Hedge-fund and Corporate class. These immunity decrees need to be abolished, and their actions are not something we should allow to be settled out of court. Selling the affluent class Teslas isn't going to undo the damage to the polluted and depleted Oceans, or arable farm land and aquifers being used as chemical dump sites by State subsidized Corps. It has to be more extensive than that and punishing Politicians, Banks, Corporations and People with jail time and fund seizures used solely to reverse these issues will be what had any chance to curtail this. > It sounds like putting people in jail doesn't work? No, as I mentioned it was the selective application of the Law that is the issue; by making it clear that everyone involved was going to prison and have their assets clawed back from their entire careers in those Industries will there be any chance for it make any significant impact. I cannot divulge the specifics but if you just heard the way the Reps from Bosch I dealt with on daily basis spoke about this knowing all they had to do was pay out a small amount in refunds in relation to VW you'd understand why I hold these views.
marcosdumay 6y ago
The carbon credit corruption (every carbon credit system is corrupt by design) and the WV fraud are exactly the kind of things a carbon tax is designed to avoid. What a carbon tax fails at is in avoiding that companies move their production to tax heavens and export from there. Luckily, this is an action that doesn't make many local friends, so it's much easier to combat politically.
- pas 6y ago
  Also it's straightforward to levy customs on imported goods and services that originate from jurisdictions where the carbon tax is too low.
- LordDragonfang 6y ago
  >Luckily, this is an action that doesn't make many local friends, so it's much easier to combat politically. I'm totally in favor of a carbon tax (even as a leftist it's a no-brainer market solution) but to claim that the corporations won't outsource to tax havens because of the "political" cost is totally laughable and just doesn't bear out in reality.
  - Melting_Harps 6y ago
    > I'm totally in favor of a carbon tax (even as a leftist it's a no-brainer market solution) but to claim that the corporations won't outsource to tax havens because of the "political" cost is totally laughable and just doesn't bear out in reality. I'm conflicted by this for several reasons as I want to believe it but I have enough Life experience to know its a farce. I have lived and worked in the 2 states with the most expensive gas in the US (Hawaii and California) and I can tell you right now the expense is a minor deterrent at best. I grew up in SoCal's motorsports culture most of my Life and when I was deepest in it in my youn adult life we certainly didn't care about MPG or the costs associated it. Daily driving track cars on the street with open waste gate and massive turbo cars with 500+hp were childhood aspirations, and +$4 dollar gas was just the cost of entry. We all knew it and accepted it and perversely wore it as a badge of honor. The traffic is famously abysmal and we spent way more money just sitting in the freeway than I care to think about back then, and yet it never stopped us. Not once. I was mainly forced to drive my track on the street when it $5/gallon after my cheap daily car (1980s Honda Prelude) was taken away from the State. And I finished my junior and most of my senior year with a car that got at best ~17mpg commuting 110 mile to school and and extra 45 when I had to go to work. This was out of necessity and not really choice, as I would have never done it it were up to me. But the money I would have other spent on books or food (subsequently I ate once a day, or every other day at work as a cook). The money deterrent doesn't actually work if you think the investment will pay off in the long term, eg Graduation and Career. Hawaii was the same but for different reasons and depends on which Island you're on, but no one is going to care about gas prices when you spent $1000s for rent or plane tickets and hotel costs how much gas price (well over $5) I never once saw locals stop to think maybe they should ride a bike and continued to drive their lifted trucks with mud tires in traffic. But then I lived in Switzerland, in several cantons including Zurich, and I can tell you right now that it has a deterrent on the youth only. Older rich people who work in finance or mega corps are driving Maybach/Brabus/AMG S class Mercedes and Alpina BMWs to their homes in town back and forth and take them to the Alps on the weekends, all while the youth (who may or may not see value in the supposed status those cars have) take public transport every where despite having VERY expensive driving licenses as they cannot afford cars let alone gas or the fees on a small VW/Renault/Fiat. I still remember laughing to myself when I saw a long row of Lamborghinis and Ferraris during the gumball with Swiss plates headed to Monaco on the bahnhofstrass at the Zurich SBB as they were all stuck in traffic and you could visually see the heat dissipation ripples at the SBB entrance for several minutes as they waited for the foot traffic to clear out for the daily commute. The joke being that they collectively probably wasted more in gas in those 8 minutes, which is very EXPENSIVE in Switzerland, than I earned in the previous 2 weeks at the time during my apprenticeship. Not to mention how many of these loopholes on taxes, and fees are used by registering Supercars or Super Saloon German exec cars or massive G Wagons as a company car that makes it exempt from many of the fees you're describing. I think he's arguing from a very naive position and they think that the Law applies to everyone equally when it never has. I'm not advocating this from an an 'eat the rich' perspective, as I have no problem with wealthy people who earned their money honestly by servicing the Market and saved their entire lives but rather from the obvious selective application of Law and that until that is made clear that these things apply to EVERYONE it will continue to happen. Gore is a prime example of your limousine liberals who pontificate about the Environmental disaster and the standards that everyone must adhere to knowing very well they will never live up as he flies all over the World in his private jet and will still be enriched and lauded for it despite being a complete fraud.
pas 6y ago
> [status quo pays] That's completely sufficient. If the tax is high enough then the "status quo" will change in months, because it'll be trivial for new or existing market participants to offer cheaper alternatives. And this gives the equation for calculating the minimum carbon tax rate. It has to be high enough that it covers the in/efficiency premium and the overhead costs (R&D, marketing, approval, implementation/construction, distribution, upkeep). We already see this in case of coal plants. Coal was cheaper, but as the natural gas infrastructure expanded, gas turbines became more efficient, oil/gas price have fallen a lot and emission standards became stricter, and now it just doesn't make sense to even keep existing coal plants online. Because upkeep is high and they are so dirty. Now the next step is to push out oil/gas plants, but first put carbon capture on the smokestacks. Since carbon capture basically "doubles" the cost of electricity it makes sense to have a tax that is higher than that so power plants will opt to install carbon capture. And so similarly we can calculate for transportation, space heating.

leoedin 6y ago

Well, yes, if you make all sorts of exemptions then businesses will pursue those. That's the state of carbon trading today. I'm advocating for a clear, non-negotiable tax on fossil fuels. If carbon leaves the ground (therefore entering the ecosystem), a fee is paid. It needs to be relatively high, otherwise it won't drive change. It changes how people make decisions through the entire economy. If you're deciding whether to build renewables + a battery or build a gas power plant, the economics look very different when your fuel comes with a large carbon fee. If you're deciding whether to buy in internal combustion engine car or an electric one, the economics are very different when the cost of gas is high because of the carbon fee. You look at the other options, or drive less. Less carbon enters the ecosystem. Ultimately corporations sell people what they want. People buy SUVs because they're comfortable, and because the extra cost of gas is marginal. If that gas cost 2x or 3x as much, those purchasing decisions would be different. We know they would, because they have been in the past. Both the 1970s and 2008 oil price shocks saw changing consumer behaviour - a move towards more efficient cars and less miles driven. If we're going to get a grip on carbon emissions, we need to price fossil fuels to represent their true cost.

scatters 6y ago

> those are tertiary effects at best and consequential more than anything Those tertiary effects are the entire point of using the market to transmit policy. They work; the market works. > Making individual people at these corps responsible [...] would be a much better start. Some VW execs got thrown in jail [...] yet the brand gained Market share in certain emerging markets that offset those losses. It sounds like putting people in jail doesn't work?

Melting_Harps 6y ago
> Those tertiary effects are the entire point of using the market to transmit policy. They work; the market works. You do realize Tesla was on the brink of death long before the the first Carbon Credit was sold in 2012? There was a real possibility that Tesla would have never made it to get to that point were it not for the external investments, Elon's own money and the DOE's loan that made it possible to make that possible for them to survive long enough to be able to be in that position to do so. Markets may work for many aspects as a medium to achieve desirable ends, and are definitely better than State involvement, but despite being a self professed Anarcho-Capitalist with a massive Agorist and Environmentalist bend I'm not convinced that Market forces alone are able to address the damage we have collectively inflicted as Species to the Environment. Actions have to have consequences for something so dire and if prison and fund seizure is widely accepted and used as a deterrent for the most heinous of crimes in Society for the Private Citizen then it must also apply to the State, Hedge-fund and Corporate class. These immunity decrees need to be abolished, and their actions are not something we should allow to be settled out of court. Selling the affluent class Teslas isn't going to undo the damage to the polluted and depleted Oceans, or arable farm land and aquifers being used as chemical dump sites by State subsidized Corps. It has to be more extensive than that and punishing Politicians, Banks, Corporations and People with jail time and fund seizures used solely to reverse these issues will be what had any chance to curtail this. > It sounds like putting people in jail doesn't work? No, as I mentioned it was the selective application of the Law that is the issue; by making it clear that everyone involved was going to prison and have their assets clawed back from their entire careers in those Industries will there be any chance for it make any significant impact. I cannot divulge the specifics but if you just heard the way the Reps from Bosch I dealt with on daily basis spoke about this knowing all they had to do was pay out a small amount in refunds in relation to VW you'd understand why I hold these views.

marcosdumay 6y ago

The carbon credit corruption (every carbon credit system is corrupt by design) and the WV fraud are exactly the kind of things a carbon tax is designed to avoid. What a carbon tax fails at is in avoiding that companies move their production to tax heavens and export from there. Luckily, this is an action that doesn't make many local friends, so it's much easier to combat politically.

pas 6y ago
Also it's straightforward to levy customs on imported goods and services that originate from jurisdictions where the carbon tax is too low.
LordDragonfang 6y ago
>Luckily, this is an action that doesn't make many local friends, so it's much easier to combat politically. I'm totally in favor of a carbon tax (even as a leftist it's a no-brainer market solution) but to claim that the corporations won't outsource to tax havens because of the "political" cost is totally laughable and just doesn't bear out in reality.
- Melting_Harps 6y ago
  > I'm totally in favor of a carbon tax (even as a leftist it's a no-brainer market solution) but to claim that the corporations won't outsource to tax havens because of the "political" cost is totally laughable and just doesn't bear out in reality. I'm conflicted by this for several reasons as I want to believe it but I have enough Life experience to know its a farce. I have lived and worked in the 2 states with the most expensive gas in the US (Hawaii and California) and I can tell you right now the expense is a minor deterrent at best. I grew up in SoCal's motorsports culture most of my Life and when I was deepest in it in my youn adult life we certainly didn't care about MPG or the costs associated it. Daily driving track cars on the street with open waste gate and massive turbo cars with 500+hp were childhood aspirations, and +$4 dollar gas was just the cost of entry. We all knew it and accepted it and perversely wore it as a badge of honor. The traffic is famously abysmal and we spent way more money just sitting in the freeway than I care to think about back then, and yet it never stopped us. Not once. I was mainly forced to drive my track on the street when it $5/gallon after my cheap daily car (1980s Honda Prelude) was taken away from the State. And I finished my junior and most of my senior year with a car that got at best ~17mpg commuting 110 mile to school and and extra 45 when I had to go to work. This was out of necessity and not really choice, as I would have never done it it were up to me. But the money I would have other spent on books or food (subsequently I ate once a day, or every other day at work as a cook). The money deterrent doesn't actually work if you think the investment will pay off in the long term, eg Graduation and Career. Hawaii was the same but for different reasons and depends on which Island you're on, but no one is going to care about gas prices when you spent $1000s for rent or plane tickets and hotel costs how much gas price (well over $5) I never once saw locals stop to think maybe they should ride a bike and continued to drive their lifted trucks with mud tires in traffic. But then I lived in Switzerland, in several cantons including Zurich, and I can tell you right now that it has a deterrent on the youth only. Older rich people who work in finance or mega corps are driving Maybach/Brabus/AMG S class Mercedes and Alpina BMWs to their homes in town back and forth and take them to the Alps on the weekends, all while the youth (who may or may not see value in the supposed status those cars have) take public transport every where despite having VERY expensive driving licenses as they cannot afford cars let alone gas or the fees on a small VW/Renault/Fiat. I still remember laughing to myself when I saw a long row of Lamborghinis and Ferraris during the gumball with Swiss plates headed to Monaco on the bahnhofstrass at the Zurich SBB as they were all stuck in traffic and you could visually see the heat dissipation ripples at the SBB entrance for several minutes as they waited for the foot traffic to clear out for the daily commute. The joke being that they collectively probably wasted more in gas in those 8 minutes, which is very EXPENSIVE in Switzerland, than I earned in the previous 2 weeks at the time during my apprenticeship. Not to mention how many of these loopholes on taxes, and fees are used by registering Supercars or Super Saloon German exec cars or massive G Wagons as a company car that makes it exempt from many of the fees you're describing. I think he's arguing from a very naive position and they think that the Law applies to everyone equally when it never has. I'm not advocating this from an an 'eat the rich' perspective, as I have no problem with wealthy people who earned their money honestly by servicing the Market and saved their entire lives but rather from the obvious selective application of Law and that until that is made clear that these things apply to EVERYONE it will continue to happen. Gore is a prime example of your limousine liberals who pontificate about the Environmental disaster and the standards that everyone must adhere to knowing very well they will never live up as he flies all over the World in his private jet and will still be enriched and lauded for it despite being a complete fraud.

pas 6y ago

> [status quo pays] That's completely sufficient. If the tax is high enough then the "status quo" will change in months, because it'll be trivial for new or existing market participants to offer cheaper alternatives. And this gives the equation for calculating the minimum carbon tax rate. It has to be high enough that it covers the in/efficiency premium and the overhead costs (R&D, marketing, approval, implementation/construction, distribution, upkeep). We already see this in case of coal plants. Coal was cheaper, but as the natural gas infrastructure expanded, gas turbines became more efficient, oil/gas price have fallen a lot and emission standards became stricter, and now it just doesn't make sense to even keep existing coal plants online. Because upkeep is high and they are so dirty. Now the next step is to push out oil/gas plants, but first put carbon capture on the smokestacks. Since carbon capture basically "doubles" the cost of electricity it makes sense to have a tax that is higher than that so power plants will opt to install carbon capture. And so similarly we can calculate for transportation, space heating.