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This part of the US perspective on covid-19 I don't understand. Everywhere I keep reading comments that suggest you pretty much deserved what you got and ameri

This part of the US perspective on covid-19 I don't understand. Everywhere I keep reading comments that suggest you pretty much deserved what you got and americans only have themselves to blame because 'if everyone just wore masks' it 'could have been contained'. Literally nothing suggests that, no other country in the world shows any statistics to back this up, and the situation is pretty much as bad as or worse in many parts of the world that did mandate masks and had lock-downs, while it is much better in other parts of the world that did none of these things. Europe is the prime example of this, there's so much variation in the measures that different countries took, but I literally see zero correlation with infection rates or deaths, not up until the point where countries go into lock-downs that dramatically limit the movement of people and the chance of getting in contact with 'strangers' that you would never get in contact with if you worked from home, did not go to bars or restaurants, did not use public transport, etc. But these measures are not sustainable long-term, so sooner or later they are relaxed and the infections start to go up again, with or without face masks, with or without people doing 'everything in their power to stop the virus' because they are traumatised by the first wave. Just look at Italy, one of the hardest hit countries in Europe in the first wave, and the place they are now in again. If anything, the countries that were the first to issue mask mandates and kept expanding them (Italy, France, Spain, Belgium) are now all at the bottom of the list in terms of covid infections and deaths in the second wave. I'll probably get downvoted into oblivion by saying as much because it's already clear to me that in the US wearing face masks is more like a religion or a political statement, but alas... The main point I wanted to make is that blaming yourself and others for the situation you are in because it 'would have been easy to contain, if only...' is not backed up by any evidence, and IMO just a form of self-torture.

garmaine 6y ago
> Literally nothing suggests that, no other country in the world has any statistics to back this up New Zealand. Taiwan. Vietnam. South Korea.
- w0utert 6y ago
  Yeah it's a lot easier if you are an island, go into super strict lock-down, and can do super-efficient (and privacy invasive) contact tracing before the number of infections even goes over 1 in 100K, like in the countries you mentioned. .. That doesn't contradict anything I said though, I was only commenting on the US situation and whether it could have been contained by 'just wearing masks'.
  - _Microft 6y ago
    To all intents and purposes, the USA are an island. They have just two land borders with neighbours they have somewhat acceptable relations with. I think the real issue they have is the unwillingness to cooperate with the other two measures: lockdowns (clashes with "freedom", at least temporarily) to reduce the number of cases to a range where they can be contact traced and then to allow contact tracing (I would guess this is because of a lack of trust in the government) to actually find people that might become infectious before they actually do. BTW "Just wearing masks" is not the solution but part of it.
  - jmull 6y ago
    Few think wearing masks alone could contain the virus. (Be wary of inventing quotes to make your argument.) It’s just the simplest, easiest thing most people can do that is effective. A no-brainer first step that slows down the spread, and consequently saves lives and/or lessens the need for harsher measures, like lockdowns.
- yread 6y ago
  Mongolia, Thailand
  - geomark 6y ago
    To put some numbers to it - Thailand: population 70 million, number of confirmed cases < 4,000, number of deaths 60, not an island - borders Myanmar on the west, Laos north and northeast, Cambodia east, Malaysia south.
    - yread 6y ago
      They were also the first country outside China to detect COVID19 patient
      - geomark 6y ago
        Yes, and they had millions of mainland Chinese tourists in 2019 and into early 2020. Amazing they did not get buried by covid-19.
m0zg 6y ago
That's pretty much a given that you'll get downvoted. I mean yeah, masks seem like a good idea regardless, and they aren't too onerous. People should wear them. They should wash their hands, too, and take vitamin D, and try to lose some weight. Same with outdoor dining or reduced occupancy. But everything else is COVID theater pretty much, and our politicians are known to make idiotic decisions under the circumstances. That's why some of our states (such as NY and NJ) have some of the highest death rates in the world - the politicians there had the bright idea to send COVID patients straight to the nursing homes, even though it was clear from the very beginning of the spread in the US that this was an extremely bad idea. The outbreak _started_ in the nursing homes in the Washington state. These same people are still there, and they're still in charge of whatever passes for "COVID response" in their states. The results are quite predictable.
hellotomyrars 6y ago
As another person has already pointed out, many countries have done an incredible job at controlling and containing Covid. Unsurprisingly, most of them are countries who have been through a version of this before (2002-2004 SARS Outbreaks). It turns out that having a strong, coordinated response and treating the issue seriously go a long way.
pjc50 6y ago
As the sibling comment says, several countries have managed to contain it. The problem is where measures are "leaky". Like computer security, you can't tell when it's working, and it potentially only takes one leak for an outbreak to happen. It seems (and well-collated evidence is lacking for this) that it's certain workplaces where the transmission is happening, along with people who don't believe it's real continuing to meet indoors in close spaces. For example, meat processing plants: https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-health-coronavirus-meat-explainer/explainer-why-covid-19-can-run-rife-in-meatpacking-plants-idUKKBN23U24W https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-health-coronavirus-meat-ex...
Mordisquitos 6y ago
> [...] it's already clear to me that in the US wearing face masks is more like a religion or a political statement [...] What about wearing masks in countries where there are mask mandates with different levels of strictness and requirements? At which point does the personal decision to wear a mask, when not strictly mandatory, become a "religion or a political statement"? Are mask mandates elsewhere religious or ideological decisions, rather than debatably effective public health decisions? Leaving aside the question of whether masks are or are not effective (and if so, to what extent, under what conditions, etc.), I think that it's disingenuous to dismiss the decision of people who wear them as an irrational or ideologically motivated choice. Many of them honestly believe (rightly or wrongly) that scientific evidence supports that using a mask is an effective way of either preventing their own infection or community spread. It is in the nature of human society that we don't meticulously research every rational decision we make, but rather rely on general approximations and societal consensus. I think that talking about wearing face masks as a religious or political statement is in itself a political statement.
ceilingcorner 6y ago
Here’s a simple rule for you regarding American politics: can X be blamed on the other side? If yes, then it will be. Simple as that. Don’t expect any rationality to come from such discussions.
krageon 6y ago
You start out cricising the "US perspective" and go on to give an entirely US-centric perspective on it: We can't do anything, nothing has been proven, none of you are thinking clearly. You have a dismissive attitude towards all measures taken by asian countries with very good (at least compared to willfully negligent countries) COVID-19 responses. This entire post obliquely critiques other people for not thinking clearly (or even god forbid "rationally"), but it is ironically very clear you have an extremely tenuous grasp of the reality of the situation yourself.
eecc 6y ago
Uh no, Italy failed to enforce social distancing in the two most critical transmission choke points: public transport and health care. In the months after the first wave nobody bothered leasing new vehicles for an already over-capacity public transport network. Excuses abounded, someone even claimed the form for the vehicle registration certificate didn't have separate fields for owner and leaser... I'm not joking. The real reason? Debt. There's no money left and 20 years of defunding and spending-diversion left behind a crippled and stunted administrative apparatus. So, people and students traveled face to face in early September when schools and workplaces reopened. Hospitals are under-staffed after years of austerity measures trying to tame monstrous debts. General Practitioner networks have also been shut-down to favor private clinics and centralized hospitals. Infected people sat in ER waiting rooms for hours, and the few GPs that still operate were given 5 protective masks per month to work with. "COVID Hotels" - normal hotels rented out wholesale by government to keep low-grades and convalescents were never made operational and people were left home to infect family members or in hospital to infect other patients while overwhelming the already thin infrastructure. Some criminally-stupid civil servant even ordered them back to nursing homes, killing more of the aging population that fortuitously survived the first wave. This has nothing to do with the effectiveness of masks, but all to the culturally ingrained disorganization of Italians. Eg: In Germany the government is already planning the logistics for mass vaccination, while in Italy the Special Commissioner for Health of Calabria (try to imagine this like a bankruptcy executor, but for a regional government) resigned after an interview where to the question "where is the COVID plan for Calabria" he answered "why are you asking me? Do I have to make this plan? - shuffles papers - Oh yes, according to this document I'm responsible. Hmm." They're trying to find a replacement, but two other resigned for various reasons... it might have to do with the last political murder of Calabria some years ago: the hospital supply chain is in the hands of the 'Ndrangheta (the local organized crime syndicate)

garmaine 6y ago

> Literally nothing suggests that, no other country in the world has any statistics to back this up New Zealand. Taiwan. Vietnam. South Korea.

w0utert 6y ago
Yeah it's a lot easier if you are an island, go into super strict lock-down, and can do super-efficient (and privacy invasive) contact tracing before the number of infections even goes over 1 in 100K, like in the countries you mentioned. .. That doesn't contradict anything I said though, I was only commenting on the US situation and whether it could have been contained by 'just wearing masks'.
- _Microft 6y ago
  To all intents and purposes, the USA are an island. They have just two land borders with neighbours they have somewhat acceptable relations with. I think the real issue they have is the unwillingness to cooperate with the other two measures: lockdowns (clashes with "freedom", at least temporarily) to reduce the number of cases to a range where they can be contact traced and then to allow contact tracing (I would guess this is because of a lack of trust in the government) to actually find people that might become infectious before they actually do. BTW "Just wearing masks" is not the solution but part of it.
- jmull 6y ago
  Few think wearing masks alone could contain the virus. (Be wary of inventing quotes to make your argument.) It’s just the simplest, easiest thing most people can do that is effective. A no-brainer first step that slows down the spread, and consequently saves lives and/or lessens the need for harsher measures, like lockdowns.
yread 6y ago
Mongolia, Thailand
- geomark 6y ago
  To put some numbers to it - Thailand: population 70 million, number of confirmed cases < 4,000, number of deaths 60, not an island - borders Myanmar on the west, Laos north and northeast, Cambodia east, Malaysia south.
  - yread 6y ago
    They were also the first country outside China to detect COVID19 patient
    - geomark 6y ago
      Yes, and they had millions of mainland Chinese tourists in 2019 and into early 2020. Amazing they did not get buried by covid-19.

m0zg 6y ago

That's pretty much a given that you'll get downvoted. I mean yeah, masks seem like a good idea regardless, and they aren't too onerous. People should wear them. They should wash their hands, too, and take vitamin D, and try to lose some weight. Same with outdoor dining or reduced occupancy. But everything else is COVID theater pretty much, and our politicians are known to make idiotic decisions under the circumstances. That's why some of our states (such as NY and NJ) have some of the highest death rates in the world - the politicians there had the bright idea to send COVID patients straight to the nursing homes, even though it was clear from the very beginning of the spread in the US that this was an extremely bad idea. The outbreak _started_ in the nursing homes in the Washington state. These same people are still there, and they're still in charge of whatever passes for "COVID response" in their states. The results are quite predictable.

hellotomyrars 6y ago

As another person has already pointed out, many countries have done an incredible job at controlling and containing Covid. Unsurprisingly, most of them are countries who have been through a version of this before (2002-2004 SARS Outbreaks). It turns out that having a strong, coordinated response and treating the issue seriously go a long way.

pjc50 6y ago

As the sibling comment says, several countries have managed to contain it. The problem is where measures are "leaky". Like computer security, you can't tell when it's working, and it potentially only takes one leak for an outbreak to happen. It seems (and well-collated evidence is lacking for this) that it's certain workplaces where the transmission is happening, along with people who don't believe it's real continuing to meet indoors in close spaces. For example, meat processing plants: https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-health-coronavirus-meat-explainer/explainer-why-covid-19-can-run-rife-in-meatpacking-plants-idUKKBN23U24W https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-health-coronavirus-meat-ex...

Mordisquitos 6y ago

> [...] it's already clear to me that in the US wearing face masks is more like a religion or a political statement [...] What about wearing masks in countries where there are mask mandates with different levels of strictness and requirements? At which point does the personal decision to wear a mask, when not strictly mandatory, become a "religion or a political statement"? Are mask mandates elsewhere religious or ideological decisions, rather than debatably effective public health decisions? Leaving aside the question of whether masks are or are not effective (and if so, to what extent, under what conditions, etc.), I think that it's disingenuous to dismiss the decision of people who wear them as an irrational or ideologically motivated choice. Many of them honestly believe (rightly or wrongly) that scientific evidence supports that using a mask is an effective way of either preventing their own infection or community spread. It is in the nature of human society that we don't meticulously research every rational decision we make, but rather rely on general approximations and societal consensus. I think that talking about wearing face masks as a religious or political statement is in itself a political statement.

ceilingcorner 6y ago

Here’s a simple rule for you regarding American politics: can X be blamed on the other side? If yes, then it will be. Simple as that. Don’t expect any rationality to come from such discussions.

krageon 6y ago

You start out cricising the "US perspective" and go on to give an entirely US-centric perspective on it: We can't do anything, nothing has been proven, none of you are thinking clearly. You have a dismissive attitude towards all measures taken by asian countries with very good (at least compared to willfully negligent countries) COVID-19 responses. This entire post obliquely critiques other people for not thinking clearly (or even god forbid "rationally"), but it is ironically very clear you have an extremely tenuous grasp of the reality of the situation yourself.

eecc 6y ago

Uh no, Italy failed to enforce social distancing in the two most critical transmission choke points: public transport and health care. In the months after the first wave nobody bothered leasing new vehicles for an already over-capacity public transport network. Excuses abounded, someone even claimed the form for the vehicle registration certificate didn't have separate fields for owner and leaser... I'm not joking. The real reason? Debt. There's no money left and 20 years of defunding and spending-diversion left behind a crippled and stunted administrative apparatus. So, people and students traveled face to face in early September when schools and workplaces reopened. Hospitals are under-staffed after years of austerity measures trying to tame monstrous debts. General Practitioner networks have also been shut-down to favor private clinics and centralized hospitals. Infected people sat in ER waiting rooms for hours, and the few GPs that still operate were given 5 protective masks per month to work with. "COVID Hotels" - normal hotels rented out wholesale by government to keep low-grades and convalescents were never made operational and people were left home to infect family members or in hospital to infect other patients while overwhelming the already thin infrastructure. Some criminally-stupid civil servant even ordered them back to nursing homes, killing more of the aging population that fortuitously survived the first wave. This has nothing to do with the effectiveness of masks, but all to the culturally ingrained disorganization of Italians. Eg: In Germany the government is already planning the logistics for mass vaccination, while in Italy the Special Commissioner for Health of Calabria (try to imagine this like a bankruptcy executor, but for a regional government) resigned after an interview where to the question "where is the COVID plan for Calabria" he answered "why are you asking me? Do I have to make this plan? - shuffles papers - Oh yes, according to this document I'm responsible. Hmm." They're trying to find a replacement, but two other resigned for various reasons... it might have to do with the last political murder of Calabria some years ago: the hospital supply chain is in the hands of the 'Ndrangheta (the local organized crime syndicate)