4 ms·

Ok, my GPG example was wrong. And yes, you got me, I'm not a professional cryptographer. But can you address the point? You said "once counterparties have authe

Ok, my GPG example was wrong. And yes, you got me, I'm not a professional cryptographer. But can you address the point? You said "once counterparties have authenticated each other's messages, the legitimate need for authentication is gone". I provided a counter-example to demonstrate that your statement was an exaggeration. You clearly dispute some part of this, but it's unclear to me what the disputed part is. Edit: Hacker News doesn't allow me to post replies to the posts under this post, so I will answer by editing this comment. I'm addressing the following comment: > Which counterexample is that exactly? Your counterexample involving a store is incorrect -- the store's email would still be authenticated for a smaller amount of time which would allow your server to verify that it is a valid email that came from the store's servers. If you actually read my counter example, you will see that I wrote: "if a third party (like a court) can authenticate the message". Yes, my email server can authenticate the email when it arrives, but that will be of little help later when I try to dispute claims in court. If the court can authenticate the email, that will be helpful to the honest party in the dispute.

tptacek 6y ago
Start by reading the first sentence of my comment.
feanaro 6y ago
> I provided a counter-example to demonstrate that your statement was an exaggeration. Which counterexample is that exactly? Your counterexample involving a store is incorrect -- the store's email would still be authenticated for a smaller amount of time which would allow your server to verify that it is a valid email that came from the store's servers. EDIT: Since you responded with an edit, I suppose I should as well. Btw, you can reply to comments below, but you have to click on the comment's permalink/timestamp (the thing that says "1 hour ago") first. I didn't see the comment you are referring to because it was a very high up ancestor. I only saw the comment I replied to which doesn't mention courts nor third-parties, which is why I asked you for an explanation. Please don't jump immediately to the conclusion that I did not read your comment. Regarding the content, hamburglar's sibling comment is spot on. Non-repudiability shouldn't just be an afterthought. Accidental non-repudiability can have negative consequences itself. For one, relying on the kind of poor man's non-repudiability that DKIM gives you leaves powerful central entities with the ability to forge email while convincing almost everyone that it is legitimate. From reading everything that you wrote, I think that your thesis is that email, specifically, ought to be non-repudiable. That might be a worthwhile idea, but it should be presented as such at the forefront. If others agree that this is a valid and useful concept, then a non-repudiability mechanism could be added to email explicitly, just as DKIM was added. But don't use DKIM for this, since it is a poor substitute.
- tptacek 6y ago
  Non-repudiability makes perfect sense in a bunch of different financial cryptography settings. People really have trouble with the idea that all cryptography isn't the same, and that it's specialized to different problem domains. It's part of the reason we still have janky old PGP.
  - feanaro 6y ago
    Yes, I'm not disagreeing with you. Non-repudiability should be an explicit design point in protocols that need it.
- baobabKoodaa 6y ago
  > Accidental non-repudiability can have negative consequences itself. For one, relying on the kind of poor man's non-repudiability that DKIM gives you leaves powerful central entities with the ability to forge email while convincing almost everyone that it is legitimate. I fully agree. > From reading everything that you wrote, I think that your thesis is that email, specifically, ought to be non-repudiable. That might be a worthwhile idea, but it should be presented as such at the forefront. If others agree that this is a valid and useful concept, then a non-repudiability mechanism could be added to email explicitly, just as DKIM was added. But don't use DKIM for this, since it is a poor substitute. If the choice was between "DKIM for non-repudiability" and "a better mechanism for non-repudiability", of course I would support the better mechanism. But that's not the choice here. The proposal here is to remove this accidental, partial non-repudiability mechanism that currently exists, and replace it with nothing. That would leave the world worse off, not better. DKIM protects innocent people from being framed for saying horrible things, and DKIM protects innocent people from guilty people who do horrible things. And sure, sometimes DKIM might be used against innocent people in some way, but the balance seems heavily in favor of DKIM (from the perspective of innocent people).
hamburglar 6y ago
> Ok, my GPG example was wrong. And yes, you got me, I'm not a professional cryptographer. But can you address the point? You said "once counterparties have authenticated each other's messages, the legitimate need for authentication is gone". I provided a counter-example ... I think the person you're talking to thinks this is very obvious and thus isn't stating it explicitly, but in the special case where you want an email to include non-repudiation, such as for a purchase receipt, the sender should just add non-repudiation to it in the form of a signature that's intended for that. Simple.
- baobabKoodaa 6y ago
  > the sender should just add non-repudiation to it in the form of a signature that's intended for that. Simple. Ok, but this does not magically happen if Google publishes and rotates their DKIM keys. People will continue to use email for everything, but now emails can no longer be authenticated by third parties.
  - hamburglar 6y ago
    I think the entire point is that non-repudiation shouldn't just magically happen unless intended, so yes, this is by design, and anyone who wants to send a signed email should explicitly send a signed email.
    - baobabKoodaa 6y ago
      > I think the entire point is that non-repudiation shouldn't just magically happen unless intended, so yes, this is by design, and anyone who wants to send a signed email should explicitly send a signed email. Let's not pretend that the world would move away from email if Google made this change. We both know that's not going to happen. Given that, can you explain why you think the world would be a better place when emails can be repudiated? When emails can be not be repudiated, innocent people can be framed for saying/doing things that they didn't do. DKIM protects innocent people from being framed. DKIM also protects innocent people against guilty people who commit frauds or other crime.

tptacek 6y ago

Start by reading the first sentence of my comment.

feanaro 6y ago

> I provided a counter-example to demonstrate that your statement was an exaggeration. Which counterexample is that exactly? Your counterexample involving a store is incorrect -- the store's email would still be authenticated for a smaller amount of time which would allow your server to verify that it is a valid email that came from the store's servers. EDIT: Since you responded with an edit, I suppose I should as well. Btw, you can reply to comments below, but you have to click on the comment's permalink/timestamp (the thing that says "1 hour ago") first. I didn't see the comment you are referring to because it was a very high up ancestor. I only saw the comment I replied to which doesn't mention courts nor third-parties, which is why I asked you for an explanation. Please don't jump immediately to the conclusion that I did not read your comment. Regarding the content, hamburglar's sibling comment is spot on. Non-repudiability shouldn't just be an afterthought. Accidental non-repudiability can have negative consequences itself. For one, relying on the kind of poor man's non-repudiability that DKIM gives you leaves powerful central entities with the ability to forge email while convincing almost everyone that it is legitimate. From reading everything that you wrote, I think that your thesis is that email, specifically, ought to be non-repudiable. That might be a worthwhile idea, but it should be presented as such at the forefront. If others agree that this is a valid and useful concept, then a non-repudiability mechanism could be added to email explicitly, just as DKIM was added. But don't use DKIM for this, since it is a poor substitute.

tptacek 6y ago
Non-repudiability makes perfect sense in a bunch of different financial cryptography settings. People really have trouble with the idea that all cryptography isn't the same, and that it's specialized to different problem domains. It's part of the reason we still have janky old PGP.
- feanaro 6y ago
  Yes, I'm not disagreeing with you. Non-repudiability should be an explicit design point in protocols that need it.
baobabKoodaa 6y ago
> Accidental non-repudiability can have negative consequences itself. For one, relying on the kind of poor man's non-repudiability that DKIM gives you leaves powerful central entities with the ability to forge email while convincing almost everyone that it is legitimate. I fully agree. > From reading everything that you wrote, I think that your thesis is that email, specifically, ought to be non-repudiable. That might be a worthwhile idea, but it should be presented as such at the forefront. If others agree that this is a valid and useful concept, then a non-repudiability mechanism could be added to email explicitly, just as DKIM was added. But don't use DKIM for this, since it is a poor substitute. If the choice was between "DKIM for non-repudiability" and "a better mechanism for non-repudiability", of course I would support the better mechanism. But that's not the choice here. The proposal here is to remove this accidental, partial non-repudiability mechanism that currently exists, and replace it with nothing. That would leave the world worse off, not better. DKIM protects innocent people from being framed for saying horrible things, and DKIM protects innocent people from guilty people who do horrible things. And sure, sometimes DKIM might be used against innocent people in some way, but the balance seems heavily in favor of DKIM (from the perspective of innocent people).

hamburglar 6y ago

> Ok, my GPG example was wrong. And yes, you got me, I'm not a professional cryptographer. But can you address the point? You said "once counterparties have authenticated each other's messages, the legitimate need for authentication is gone". I provided a counter-example ... I think the person you're talking to thinks this is very obvious and thus isn't stating it explicitly, but in the special case where you want an email to include non-repudiation, such as for a purchase receipt, the sender should just add non-repudiation to it in the form of a signature that's intended for that. Simple.

baobabKoodaa 6y ago
> the sender should just add non-repudiation to it in the form of a signature that's intended for that. Simple. Ok, but this does not magically happen if Google publishes and rotates their DKIM keys. People will continue to use email for everything, but now emails can no longer be authenticated by third parties.
- hamburglar 6y ago
  I think the entire point is that non-repudiation shouldn't just magically happen unless intended, so yes, this is by design, and anyone who wants to send a signed email should explicitly send a signed email.
  - baobabKoodaa 6y ago
    > I think the entire point is that non-repudiation shouldn't just magically happen unless intended, so yes, this is by design, and anyone who wants to send a signed email should explicitly send a signed email. Let's not pretend that the world would move away from email if Google made this change. We both know that's not going to happen. Given that, can you explain why you think the world would be a better place when emails can be repudiated? When emails can be not be repudiated, innocent people can be framed for saying/doing things that they didn't do. DKIM protects innocent people from being framed. DKIM also protects innocent people against guilty people who commit frauds or other crime.