11 ms·

The problem should have never existed. Phoning home in this manner should never have existed. This problem is not a bug, it's a fundamental problem with the cul

The problem should have never existed. Phoning home in this manner should never have existed. This problem is not a bug, it's a fundamental problem with the culture of software development apple curates. They don't believe you should own your computer, that apple always knows better, and if you don't use it the way they force you to, it's unsupported behavior. To them this is natural, they get away doing anything with the Iphone. Doing it to macos is the natural result of that precedent. There's a downvote brigade in this thread. The downvote button is not a "I disagree" button.

deepstack 6y ago
I would like to see mac that does not phone home at all out of box! And if you chose to use internet then it phone home for authentication like icloud.
- grishka 6y ago
  I think you can still complete the initial setup on a mac without ever connecting it to the internet?
  - totalZero 6y ago
    Ok, but what do you do after that? I don't think most people can realistically use a Mac (or PC) without ever connecting to the internet.
    - dvfjsdhgfv 6y ago
      The Windows community reacted to similar behavior by Microsoft by creating several scripts and lists of servers being used to phone home. I guess something similar will be created for macOS although the actual packet filtering will have to be implemented on the router rather than the host.
    - deepstack 6y ago
      I want a computer that I can use for music without internet. Only connect for software upgrade. Very simple. And I don't want to use linux or freebsd. Mac used to be for pros, not it is just for hispsters.
- Cthulhu_ 6y ago
  And that's fair, you can put the notary verification server in your hosts file so requests to it do not work and everything will work as before. But for the vast majority of people, a system that warns them their software has been compromised will help keep things secure. I mean I don't agree with them phoning home for every application startup; they could have implemented it like the https certificate system, where you have a database on your own system with signatures that the OS can check against. They can install the signature (or fetch it) on application installation / update, no additional phone home required. They could even put it in a secure enclave or whatever so that in theory, no malicious software can update it.
lowdose 6y ago
I would love some policy experimentation with downvoting because downvotes are demotivating and reduce engagement and discussion bandwidth. I think downvoting amplifies herding behavior. I propose only giving the right to downvote after a comment reply is posted because as commenter a -3 value doesn't contain any information about the comment itself.
- DavideNL 6y ago
  > I propose only giving the right to downvote after a comment reply is posted 100% agree...
  - colejohnson66 6y ago
    “I disagree.” Can I downvote you now? That’s what not requiring comments prevents: useless comments that are just posted so people can downvote. So now your comment section is flooded by “I disagree” comments and you can’t downvote those without leaving a comment as well. It’s a self-serving cycle.
    - lowdose 6y ago
      You reverse causality, you shouldn't use a downvote when you disagree with someones opinion to begin with. I took a karma hit of -4 on the comment above just because people disagree with an idea I proposed.
      - colejohnson66 6y ago
        @dang has said downvoting for disagreements is ok. I can’t remember where, but he has.
- richthegeek 6y ago
  HN does have some policy around downvoting - you have to have ~600 "karma" before you can do it. Reddit doesn't any restrictions at all, and of course that's a massive echo-chamber. But Facebook and Instagram only have upvotes (likes) and the communities are either massive hugboxes or ghettoes.
PostThisTooFast 6y ago
Apple often refuses to learn, or in fact "forgets" what the industry already knew. Another example: Forcing people to use an E-mail address as their user ID. This is a security and practicality disaster. Not only do people now have multiple Apple IDs (which Apple huffily refuses to consolidate) that split their iCloud and App Store purchases into a mess, but a large proportion of the public undoubtedly thinks that they have to use the same password for this ID as they do for their E-mail account itself. Everyone's E-mail address is on spammers' lists. When you combine that with a list of the top passwords, you get thousands if not millions of compromised accounts. STUPID.
DavideNL 6y ago
> This problem is not a bug, it's a fundamental problem with the culture of software development apple curates. An equally annoying "Apple policy enforcement" is you cannot downgrade apps on iOS; So you're using some app and an important part of your daily workflow is based on using this app, and all of a sudden out of nowhere Apple or the Developer decides to radically change/update the app and now your workflow is broken. No way to go back to your previous workflow. So frustrating... we do not own our devices anymore. Apple enforces what we may and may not do with our devices.
- raverbashing 6y ago
  > is you cannot downgrade apps on iOS That is very annoying. There should be at least the possibility of "return to previous good old version" Non-hypotetical example: Latest app update breaks in some weird way on older iPhones/iPads. While developers need to figure that out, users are left unable to use their apps.
  - m463 6y ago
    I had two apps that radically changed their business model through updates with no recourse. I had an app called gas cubby, which let me locally - on the phone - keep track of all my vehicles. I could enter detailed information about each car such as year, make, model, vin, insurance policy, gas purchases, oil changes and the like. It would tell you gas mileage and remind you of upcoming maintenance. One day, the app was updated and all my local data was uploaded to the cloud. Another app I had was camscanner from tencent that basically did the same thing. Think of all the PDFs you scan going to their cloud.
    - DennisP 6y ago
      I had an app that did nothing but try to identify plants from photos of them, and they updated it to require a social media login. Another app that let you take a photo of a wine bottle and show you reviews of the wine. They added a social media login too. My list of favorite wines was gone unless I logged in. I don't use those apps anymore.
skibble 6y ago
Oh please. Just because there’s someone shouting this in every such thread doesn’t make it automatically true. You can set up a Mac without ever connecting it to the internet and it will work perfectly. These are defensive measures to protect the general user base from malware. Yes, using HTTP in 2020 is worthy of scrutiny, but not using every such incident as a new piece of armour for this tedious narrative. Apple’s entire platform offering is based around curation. If you disagree with it, there are many other platforms out there you can elect to use. The bitterness that flies around whenever Apple comes up around here is almost inexplicable.
- jb1991 6y ago
  > The bitterness that flies around whenever Apple comes up around here is almost inexplicable. or more specifically, not so much inexplicable (as actually I think it is quite predictable), but rather it is just exhausting. I'm never going to buy a Windows computer. Period. I'm probably never going to switch to Linux either. I don't go around shouting my reasons why I won't, and I think most Apple users behave this way. But for a certain segment of the non-Apple crowd, yelling consistently about their opinions is an odd recurrence.
  - izacus 6y ago
    What a bizarre post considering all the pro-Apple smugness we see in Windows, Android and Linux topics. To the point where some of them are almost outright Apple ads. Almost as bizarre as loyalty to a single brand even when they stop treating you well.
    - sbuk 6y ago
      I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again; there is smugness from all sides. There does appear to be a an awful lot more coming from the FOSS community, but perhaps that cognitive bias on my part, id suggest that what you see is the same.
      - dontcarethrow2 6y ago
jb1991 6y ago
Well, my counterpoints are this: 1) What if, and bear with me here, what if Apple's explanation for why they are doing this is legit? What if they are successfully preventing some malware from running on macs? 2) "They don't believe you should own your computer" -- it appears Apple is planning to offer a feature that allows you to turn this behavior off. It's easy to assume Apple has malicious intentions here. But I think there is a larger issue which is that all kinds of bad stuff can in fact run on your machine without your intention. You could try to throw anti-virus software at the problem, and that's one approach, and Apple is taking this approach. Which is the best approach? That's a much more complicated discussion.
- arvinsim 6y ago
  > You could try to throw anti-virus software at the problem, and that's one approach, and Apple is taking this approach. Which is the best approach? That's a much more complicated discussion. If I do want to rely on anti-virus instead of Apple, it still doesn't matter. Apple doesn't give you a choice.
  - jb1991 6y ago
    > Apple doesn't give you a choice. That is completely incorrect. You have the most important choice of all: Just don't buy Apple. For everyone else, assume they've already made that choice and are very comfortable with Apple's strategy of curating everything on the machine, not because they are evil or control-freaks, but because they do genuinely want the platform as safe and high-quality as they can make it. Whether it works or not is perhaps a matter of opinion, but if it's not your opinion, move along. No need to spend the days fussing about things you don't own.
- totalZero 6y ago
  Opt-out is not appropriate for privacy concerns, IMO, for two reasons. 1. Opt-out is not necessarily sticky. I don't have confidence that when I opt out, my preference will get rolled forward every time there's an update to the way the feature works. I have noticed this in the past with Facebook and Google. 2. What's good for the goose is good for the gander. If Apple needs to implement opt-out to placate sophisticated users who actually understand what the problem is, then what about the poor saps who don't really know why this is a bad thing in the first place? If this is truly a "feature," let people decide for themselves at time of device setup whether they want to opt in.
pndy 6y ago
> it's a fundamental problem with the culture of software development apple curates. It's not the Apple exclusive problem; Microsoft, Google are also guilty of datamining our activity and so are many others. The story is always same saying they're respecting our privacy, data is anonymized and it's being used for good cause of improving software and services. But then, suddenly we're learning that someone somewhere is sucking more than it promised in a way that is far from private.
Ensorceled 6y ago
I can't really disagree with you because, well, this is just a rant disguised as opinion. But, don't worry, your HN rep is safe because these types of rants appear in ALL the Apple threads, there are many that feel the same.
jagged-chisel 6y ago
From the Guidelines[0]: Please don't comment about the voting on comments. It never does any good, and it makes boring reading. And dang himself has backed up the "downvote button as a disagree button" idea, so if you really want to make that argument, I think you'll find the site admins against the idea (frustrating as it is.) [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
notAthingth0 6y ago
I disagree. You’re 1 in 7 billion and not every one wants to be a car mechanic. To customers this is natural. This is a tiring attitude to encounter in society, from car guys to computer guys. An individual or a minority does not dictate market behaviors. To everyone except control freaks that’s natural. Social memes of yesterday are fading. Should we revive pagan ritual and return the land to Native Americans? How to avoid harm in a reality that erodes on auto-pilot? Your words are outdated software, programmed in decades ago. You’re over the hill and new ideas are following up as usual. Move along. If you have real ideas act on them. The market for low effort bleating online is saturated. Such ideas aren’t even worth a dime a dozen anymore.
- fierarul 6y ago
  There's so much wrong in your reply it's no wonder you had to create a separate account. Even you knew that! This news is on the HN front page with a reasonable amount of votes. Based on past discussion here and elsewhere a lot of people care.
api 6y ago
It's not a conspiracy. Apple is responding to what the vast majority of the market wants. Most customers want a computer that "just works" and is secure, and they want Apple to do security for them. Having the OS/machine vendor do security for you is a gigantic value-add for most users. Most people either don't know enough to handle it themselves or don't have time. There is a minority base of users who explicitly don't want this, and that includes many of the users on HN. Product development tends to be a quasi-democracy in that what most of the market wants, most of the market gets. That being said the implementation here is badly designed. What Apple should do is have an advanced dialog in the security/privacy preference panel that allows these things to be configured, but with a warning that doing so will disable certain Apple-provided security features. Also: Macs have plenty of space. Why not download the entire f'ing CRL list? It's just a bunch of hashes and timestamps. Download the whole thing and then update it with patches at a configurable rate: every 15 minutes, every hour, every day, or "on request." That would fix many problems.
zepto 6y ago
There is a brigade saying ‘it’s not yours’. Or ‘they don’t believe you should own your computer‘.
greggman3 6y ago
> The downvote button is not a "I disagree" button. Unfortunately it is. Verified by email with dang I thought it wasn't. I made a suggestion. I was told I was wrong. Downvoting for disagreeing is fine on HN. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16131314 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16131314.

deepstack 6y ago

I would like to see mac that does not phone home at all out of box! And if you chose to use internet then it phone home for authentication like icloud.

grishka 6y ago
I think you can still complete the initial setup on a mac without ever connecting it to the internet?
- totalZero 6y ago
  Ok, but what do you do after that? I don't think most people can realistically use a Mac (or PC) without ever connecting to the internet.
  - dvfjsdhgfv 6y ago
    The Windows community reacted to similar behavior by Microsoft by creating several scripts and lists of servers being used to phone home. I guess something similar will be created for macOS although the actual packet filtering will have to be implemented on the router rather than the host.
  - deepstack 6y ago
    I want a computer that I can use for music without internet. Only connect for software upgrade. Very simple. And I don't want to use linux or freebsd. Mac used to be for pros, not it is just for hispsters.
Cthulhu_ 6y ago
And that's fair, you can put the notary verification server in your hosts file so requests to it do not work and everything will work as before. But for the vast majority of people, a system that warns them their software has been compromised will help keep things secure. I mean I don't agree with them phoning home for every application startup; they could have implemented it like the https certificate system, where you have a database on your own system with signatures that the OS can check against. They can install the signature (or fetch it) on application installation / update, no additional phone home required. They could even put it in a secure enclave or whatever so that in theory, no malicious software can update it.

lowdose 6y ago

I would love some policy experimentation with downvoting because downvotes are demotivating and reduce engagement and discussion bandwidth. I think downvoting amplifies herding behavior. I propose only giving the right to downvote after a comment reply is posted because as commenter a -3 value doesn't contain any information about the comment itself.

DavideNL 6y ago
> I propose only giving the right to downvote after a comment reply is posted 100% agree...
- colejohnson66 6y ago
  “I disagree.” Can I downvote you now? That’s what not requiring comments prevents: useless comments that are just posted so people can downvote. So now your comment section is flooded by “I disagree” comments and you can’t downvote those without leaving a comment as well. It’s a self-serving cycle.
  - lowdose 6y ago
    You reverse causality, you shouldn't use a downvote when you disagree with someones opinion to begin with. I took a karma hit of -4 on the comment above just because people disagree with an idea I proposed.
    - colejohnson66 6y ago
      @dang has said downvoting for disagreements is ok. I can’t remember where, but he has.
richthegeek 6y ago
HN does have some policy around downvoting - you have to have ~600 "karma" before you can do it. Reddit doesn't any restrictions at all, and of course that's a massive echo-chamber. But Facebook and Instagram only have upvotes (likes) and the communities are either massive hugboxes or ghettoes.

PostThisTooFast 6y ago

Apple often refuses to learn, or in fact "forgets" what the industry already knew. Another example: Forcing people to use an E-mail address as their user ID. This is a security and practicality disaster. Not only do people now have multiple Apple IDs (which Apple huffily refuses to consolidate) that split their iCloud and App Store purchases into a mess, but a large proportion of the public undoubtedly thinks that they have to use the same password for this ID as they do for their E-mail account itself. Everyone's E-mail address is on spammers' lists. When you combine that with a list of the top passwords, you get thousands if not millions of compromised accounts. STUPID.

DavideNL 6y ago

> This problem is not a bug, it's a fundamental problem with the culture of software development apple curates. An equally annoying "Apple policy enforcement" is you cannot downgrade apps on iOS; So you're using some app and an important part of your daily workflow is based on using this app, and all of a sudden out of nowhere Apple or the Developer decides to radically change/update the app and now your workflow is broken. No way to go back to your previous workflow. So frustrating... we do not own our devices anymore. Apple enforces what we may and may not do with our devices.

raverbashing 6y ago
> is you cannot downgrade apps on iOS That is very annoying. There should be at least the possibility of "return to previous good old version" Non-hypotetical example: Latest app update breaks in some weird way on older iPhones/iPads. While developers need to figure that out, users are left unable to use their apps.
- m463 6y ago
  I had two apps that radically changed their business model through updates with no recourse. I had an app called gas cubby, which let me locally - on the phone - keep track of all my vehicles. I could enter detailed information about each car such as year, make, model, vin, insurance policy, gas purchases, oil changes and the like. It would tell you gas mileage and remind you of upcoming maintenance. One day, the app was updated and all my local data was uploaded to the cloud. Another app I had was camscanner from tencent that basically did the same thing. Think of all the PDFs you scan going to their cloud.
  - DennisP 6y ago
    I had an app that did nothing but try to identify plants from photos of them, and they updated it to require a social media login. Another app that let you take a photo of a wine bottle and show you reviews of the wine. They added a social media login too. My list of favorite wines was gone unless I logged in. I don't use those apps anymore.

skibble 6y ago

Oh please. Just because there’s someone shouting this in every such thread doesn’t make it automatically true. You can set up a Mac without ever connecting it to the internet and it will work perfectly. These are defensive measures to protect the general user base from malware. Yes, using HTTP in 2020 is worthy of scrutiny, but not using every such incident as a new piece of armour for this tedious narrative. Apple’s entire platform offering is based around curation. If you disagree with it, there are many other platforms out there you can elect to use. The bitterness that flies around whenever Apple comes up around here is almost inexplicable.

jb1991 6y ago
> The bitterness that flies around whenever Apple comes up around here is almost inexplicable. or more specifically, not so much inexplicable (as actually I think it is quite predictable), but rather it is just exhausting. I'm never going to buy a Windows computer. Period. I'm probably never going to switch to Linux either. I don't go around shouting my reasons why I won't, and I think most Apple users behave this way. But for a certain segment of the non-Apple crowd, yelling consistently about their opinions is an odd recurrence.
- izacus 6y ago
  What a bizarre post considering all the pro-Apple smugness we see in Windows, Android and Linux topics. To the point where some of them are almost outright Apple ads. Almost as bizarre as loyalty to a single brand even when they stop treating you well.
  - sbuk 6y ago
    I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again; there is smugness from all sides. There does appear to be a an awful lot more coming from the FOSS community, but perhaps that cognitive bias on my part, id suggest that what you see is the same.
    - dontcarethrow2 6y ago

jb1991 6y ago

Well, my counterpoints are this: 1) What if, and bear with me here, what if Apple's explanation for why they are doing this is legit? What if they are successfully preventing some malware from running on macs? 2) "They don't believe you should own your computer" -- it appears Apple is planning to offer a feature that allows you to turn this behavior off. It's easy to assume Apple has malicious intentions here. But I think there is a larger issue which is that all kinds of bad stuff can in fact run on your machine without your intention. You could try to throw anti-virus software at the problem, and that's one approach, and Apple is taking this approach. Which is the best approach? That's a much more complicated discussion.

arvinsim 6y ago
> You could try to throw anti-virus software at the problem, and that's one approach, and Apple is taking this approach. Which is the best approach? That's a much more complicated discussion. If I do want to rely on anti-virus instead of Apple, it still doesn't matter. Apple doesn't give you a choice.
- jb1991 6y ago
  > Apple doesn't give you a choice. That is completely incorrect. You have the most important choice of all: Just don't buy Apple. For everyone else, assume they've already made that choice and are very comfortable with Apple's strategy of curating everything on the machine, not because they are evil or control-freaks, but because they do genuinely want the platform as safe and high-quality as they can make it. Whether it works or not is perhaps a matter of opinion, but if it's not your opinion, move along. No need to spend the days fussing about things you don't own.
totalZero 6y ago
Opt-out is not appropriate for privacy concerns, IMO, for two reasons. 1. Opt-out is not necessarily sticky. I don't have confidence that when I opt out, my preference will get rolled forward every time there's an update to the way the feature works. I have noticed this in the past with Facebook and Google. 2. What's good for the goose is good for the gander. If Apple needs to implement opt-out to placate sophisticated users who actually understand what the problem is, then what about the poor saps who don't really know why this is a bad thing in the first place? If this is truly a "feature," let people decide for themselves at time of device setup whether they want to opt in.

pndy 6y ago

> it's a fundamental problem with the culture of software development apple curates. It's not the Apple exclusive problem; Microsoft, Google are also guilty of datamining our activity and so are many others. The story is always same saying they're respecting our privacy, data is anonymized and it's being used for good cause of improving software and services. But then, suddenly we're learning that someone somewhere is sucking more than it promised in a way that is far from private.

Ensorceled 6y ago

I can't really disagree with you because, well, this is just a rant disguised as opinion. But, don't worry, your HN rep is safe because these types of rants appear in ALL the Apple threads, there are many that feel the same.

jagged-chisel 6y ago

From the Guidelines[0]: Please don't comment about the voting on comments. It never does any good, and it makes boring reading. And dang himself has backed up the "downvote button as a disagree button" idea, so if you really want to make that argument, I think you'll find the site admins against the idea (frustrating as it is.) [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

notAthingth0 6y ago

I disagree. You’re 1 in 7 billion and not every one wants to be a car mechanic. To customers this is natural. This is a tiring attitude to encounter in society, from car guys to computer guys. An individual or a minority does not dictate market behaviors. To everyone except control freaks that’s natural. Social memes of yesterday are fading. Should we revive pagan ritual and return the land to Native Americans? How to avoid harm in a reality that erodes on auto-pilot? Your words are outdated software, programmed in decades ago. You’re over the hill and new ideas are following up as usual. Move along. If you have real ideas act on them. The market for low effort bleating online is saturated. Such ideas aren’t even worth a dime a dozen anymore.

fierarul 6y ago
There's so much wrong in your reply it's no wonder you had to create a separate account. Even you knew that! This news is on the HN front page with a reasonable amount of votes. Based on past discussion here and elsewhere a lot of people care.

api 6y ago

It's not a conspiracy. Apple is responding to what the vast majority of the market wants. Most customers want a computer that "just works" and is secure, and they want Apple to do security for them. Having the OS/machine vendor do security for you is a gigantic value-add for most users. Most people either don't know enough to handle it themselves or don't have time. There is a minority base of users who explicitly don't want this, and that includes many of the users on HN. Product development tends to be a quasi-democracy in that what most of the market wants, most of the market gets. That being said the implementation here is badly designed. What Apple should do is have an advanced dialog in the security/privacy preference panel that allows these things to be configured, but with a warning that doing so will disable certain Apple-provided security features. Also: Macs have plenty of space. Why not download the entire f'ing CRL list? It's just a bunch of hashes and timestamps. Download the whole thing and then update it with patches at a configurable rate: every 15 minutes, every hour, every day, or "on request." That would fix many problems.

zepto 6y ago

There is a brigade saying ‘it’s not yours’. Or ‘they don’t believe you should own your computer‘.

greggman3 6y ago

> The downvote button is not a "I disagree" button. Unfortunately it is. Verified by email with dang I thought it wasn't. I made a suggestion. I was told I was wrong. Downvoting for disagreeing is fine on HN. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16131314 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16131314.