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However in the exact same vane that "Nature doesn't care"... We as Humans should and DO care. We are not Nature, and thus these existential defining issues sho

by erickj 6y ago

However in the exact same vane that "Nature doesn't care"... We as Humans should and DO care. We are not Nature, and thus these existential defining issues should at least give us some pause to debate and evaluate the moral quandaries and responsibilities that this level of engineering power wields.

flatline 6y ago
We are very much Nature. Possibly something independent of our own minds exist; we can never really know. Anything worth preserving, caring for, or caring about, is a product of the human mind. The meteor careening into the earth does not feel a moral quandary, but we do, and as such I agree that given our limited knowledge we should care. But we should also pay heed to how ignorant we are: we cannot possibly know how our present actions will play out in the future, the best we can do is try to be compassionate and take care of what we can. The rest is out of our control and hence our sphere of responsibility.
- erickj 6y ago
  I'm not saying we aren't a product of Nature... I'm saying that the defining trait of man that sets us outside of our natural surroundings is our capability to use intellect, empathy, and morality to guide our decisions. This is not a tool that "Nature" has in its toolbox. Nature has, natural selection. The random smatterings of dice throws that takes place trillions of times per day over the course of billions of years. The equivalent of throwing paint against the wall for a millennia to eventually recreate a Picasso. This is not how humans work. Our efforts are efficient (at least more so than Nature's efforts), and when honed and optimized can be made into machines of frighteningly impressive efficiency. There is certainly a difference between the creative and destructive processes of Man vs Nature.
cubano 6y ago
How can you possibly even say "We are not Nature"? Of course we are Nature. We came to being the exact same way every other current living species did, thru natural selection. So then how can we be living, as you say, somehow outside this "Nature" you speak of? Hell, I know I may be in a small minority who says, by definition, nothing that we do is "wrong" because we are simply doing what our brains, which are 100% a product of this Nature, are telling us to do. Post-modernism is quick to tell us there are no absolute rights and wrongs...that only culture makes it so. So why then can some say that its immoral to create and study these creatures that our nature-created brains have led us to create?
- jonplackett 6y ago
  This is really an argument about the definition of natural isn’t it. We’re from nature but personally I believe humans are something different. We’re the only animal with choice - that we know of at least, and if you believe in free will, which some people don’t of course.
  - linkdd 6y ago
    It's not a matter of what we believe, but it's a matter of facts. Humans comes from nature, and the building blocks of a human are the same as everything else in the universe (as far as we know). Recent studies have shown that "choice" is made before we are even conscious of it (so byebye free will?), and no studies have shown that we are the only living creature able to make "choices". "Humans are special", "Humans are different", "Humans are smarter" is the perfect example of arrogance and ignorance of humans.
    - TeMPOraL 6y ago
      It is a matter of definitions, and it's a matter of avoiding a fallacy. Just because "we come from nature", doesn't mean we're bound to whatever patterns of behavior we observe in animals, and it especially doesn't mean the "nature" tells us what we should or shouldn't do. The world of non-human living things is a very bad place to look for lessons in morality. "Humans are different" isn't arrogance, it's observable reality. And we need some words to separate the categories of "things done / caused by humans" vs "things done / caused by everything else" - hence the common meaning of "natural" and "nature". > the building blocks of a human are the same as everything else in the universe (as far as we know). Building blocks of everything in the universe are the same, but there's still meaningful difference between things.
    - animal_spirits 6y ago
      Humans _are_ special, humans _are_ smarter. While yes we do share common ancestors with chimpanzees and other apes, there is something incredibly different between us and the chimpanzee. I just got off of an airplane thinking how insane it is humans can build these tools. We humans wield great power over other life. With great power comes great responsibility, and just as much as we should humbly recognize our origins and common ancestors with other life, we should also recognize the immense responsibilities over other life that we have.
lopmotr 6y ago
Caring isn't fundamentally good or right. It just happens to be a feeling that humans have. We probably have it because it gives our species some advantage over other species. It might be that a more "right" way of behaving is aggressive eugenics to create better life for future humans or even a future species. Animals often do this by killing the runt of their litter or hen-pecking each other to death.

by erickj 6y ago

flatline 6y ago

We are very much Nature. Possibly something independent of our own minds exist; we can never really know. Anything worth preserving, caring for, or caring about, is a product of the human mind. The meteor careening into the earth does not feel a moral quandary, but we do, and as such I agree that given our limited knowledge we should care. But we should also pay heed to how ignorant we are: we cannot possibly know how our present actions will play out in the future, the best we can do is try to be compassionate and take care of what we can. The rest is out of our control and hence our sphere of responsibility.

erickj 6y ago
I'm not saying we aren't a product of Nature... I'm saying that the defining trait of man that sets us outside of our natural surroundings is our capability to use intellect, empathy, and morality to guide our decisions. This is not a tool that "Nature" has in its toolbox. Nature has, natural selection. The random smatterings of dice throws that takes place trillions of times per day over the course of billions of years. The equivalent of throwing paint against the wall for a millennia to eventually recreate a Picasso. This is not how humans work. Our efforts are efficient (at least more so than Nature's efforts), and when honed and optimized can be made into machines of frighteningly impressive efficiency. There is certainly a difference between the creative and destructive processes of Man vs Nature.

cubano 6y ago

How can you possibly even say "We are not Nature"? Of course we are Nature. We came to being the exact same way every other current living species did, thru natural selection. So then how can we be living, as you say, somehow outside this "Nature" you speak of? Hell, I know I may be in a small minority who says, by definition, nothing that we do is "wrong" because we are simply doing what our brains, which are 100% a product of this Nature, are telling us to do. Post-modernism is quick to tell us there are no absolute rights and wrongs...that only culture makes it so. So why then can some say that its immoral to create and study these creatures that our nature-created brains have led us to create?

jonplackett 6y ago
This is really an argument about the definition of natural isn’t it. We’re from nature but personally I believe humans are something different. We’re the only animal with choice - that we know of at least, and if you believe in free will, which some people don’t of course.
- linkdd 6y ago
  It's not a matter of what we believe, but it's a matter of facts. Humans comes from nature, and the building blocks of a human are the same as everything else in the universe (as far as we know). Recent studies have shown that "choice" is made before we are even conscious of it (so byebye free will?), and no studies have shown that we are the only living creature able to make "choices". "Humans are special", "Humans are different", "Humans are smarter" is the perfect example of arrogance and ignorance of humans.
  - TeMPOraL 6y ago
    It is a matter of definitions, and it's a matter of avoiding a fallacy. Just because "we come from nature", doesn't mean we're bound to whatever patterns of behavior we observe in animals, and it especially doesn't mean the "nature" tells us what we should or shouldn't do. The world of non-human living things is a very bad place to look for lessons in morality. "Humans are different" isn't arrogance, it's observable reality. And we need some words to separate the categories of "things done / caused by humans" vs "things done / caused by everything else" - hence the common meaning of "natural" and "nature". > the building blocks of a human are the same as everything else in the universe (as far as we know). Building blocks of everything in the universe are the same, but there's still meaningful difference between things.
  - animal_spirits 6y ago
    Humans _are_ special, humans _are_ smarter. While yes we do share common ancestors with chimpanzees and other apes, there is something incredibly different between us and the chimpanzee. I just got off of an airplane thinking how insane it is humans can build these tools. We humans wield great power over other life. With great power comes great responsibility, and just as much as we should humbly recognize our origins and common ancestors with other life, we should also recognize the immense responsibilities over other life that we have.

lopmotr 6y ago

Caring isn't fundamentally good or right. It just happens to be a feeling that humans have. We probably have it because it gives our species some advantage over other species. It might be that a more "right" way of behaving is aggressive eugenics to create better life for future humans or even a future species. Animals often do this by killing the runt of their litter or hen-pecking each other to death.