5 ms·

LaTeX is a perfect software, zero defects for YEARS now. Which tool could claim that?

Tomte 6y ago
That's obviously wrong. You're probably thinking of TeX which is bug-free, due to a combination of (a) Donald Knuth being a genius, (b) extreme scrutiny of the code base (in part because of the reward cheques) and (c) Knuth having defined it as bug-free years ago.
- hzhou321 6y ago
  I agree and I think (c) plays the bigger part for its perfection.
- jcranmer 6y ago
  > (c) Knuth having defined it as bug-free years ago. IIRC, TeX only becomes defined bug-free on Knuth's death. However, it is feature-complete, in the sense that there are no more features to be added, even if such functionality is desperately needed. (Most notably, TeX does have issues with i18n and especially right-to-left text support)
syntheticnature 6y ago
You might be thinking of TeX (and even there it requires special definition), LaTeX's issue list is a bit more active: https://github.com/latex3/latex2e/issues https://github.com/latex3/latex2e/issues
mhh__ 6y ago
It's also decades old and positively crap if you try and treat it like you would a modern programming language. It's way too difficult a problem to do on a whim but quite a lot of time in academia is just thrown down the pit of LaTeX (be that due to incompetence or the design being older than various principles e.g. DRY) LaTeX is certainly the best LaTeX, but it doesn't really have that many competitors.
- brundolf 6y ago
  What's the reason it doesn't have many competitors? Is it intrinsically too hard of a problem, or is it a matter of network effects (extensions, existing knowledge, existing bodies of work, etc)? Or is there just a lack of motivation?
  - mhh__ 6y ago
    Typesetting is hard
    - brundolf 6y ago
      It's something I'm (probably foolishly) tempted to take a swing at. I have a lot of experience with doing layout in HTML/CSS (of which printable typesetting feels like a subset, superficially at least), and I've been getting into writing parsers/doing language design recently. The only problem is I don't know a ton about LaTeX or how people use it other than "it lets you very precisely format documents via special markup, including things like mathematical formulas and diagrams (?), and it's used by lots of academics".
      - zzless 6y ago
        I respect your courage but I have to disagree with your assessment of CSS vs real typography. Layout capabilities of CSS are orders of magnitude less extensive compared to those of TeX. For example it is nearly impossible to say, put a box 2/3 of the width of a container of unknown width. Just the simple task of centering an element has pages dedicated to it and to my knowledge, only CSS3 has a reasonably workable solution. As far as LaTeX's abilities as a programming language go, I have an interpreter for a reasonable subset of C written in TeX (it was an academic exercise but this is just to show what is possible). So it is much more than a mere markup language.
        brundolf 6y ago
        > For example it is nearly impossible to say, put a box 2/3 of the width of a container of unknown width. Just the simple task of centering an element has pages dedicated to it and to my knowledge, only CSS3 has a reasonably workable solution. It's been a few years since you used CSS :) Both of these things are trivial to do now But to be clear: while I think my CSS experience would give me a grasp of what needs to be expressed and some ideas for how to express it, there is a whole other layer of actually applying that, and reconciling it with the content, which would be a challenge (and is done for you by the browser in CSS' case) > As far as LaTeX's abilities as a programming language go, I have an interpreter for a reasonable subset of C written in TeX (it was an academic exercise but this is just to show what is possible). So it is much more than a mere markup language. I believe you, but I also question whether that level of power is actually being used by people making documents with it, or whether it just adds complexity. I genuinely don't know. But those are the kinds of places one might find improvements to be made.
CJefferson 6y ago
It's full of defects, they'll just never be fixed. Most languges would define the error messages of LaTeX as defects, and once you start including packages, many don't work together. I never realised how awful LaTeX was until I started working with a co-author who is blind, if you just "write LaTeX" you end up with equations, algorithms and tables constantly half-off the page.
- johnday 6y ago
  LaTeX does report this as a problem, of course - the refrain of "overfull hbox" is near universal (and ignoring the warning is just as universal). Where it fails is in reporting the problem in a meaningful way. This is, of course, very difficult to accomplish, since there is no nice mapping from line-of-TeX to visual error. What's more, any tool which could provide such an error would be so constrained as to be useless for typesetting.

That's obviously wrong. You're probably thinking of TeX which is bug-free, due to a combination of (a) Donald Knuth being a genius, (b) extreme scrutiny of the code base (in part because of the reward cheques) and (c) Knuth having defined it as bug-free years ago.

hzhou321 6y ago
I agree and I think (c) plays the bigger part for its perfection.
jcranmer 6y ago
> (c) Knuth having defined it as bug-free years ago. IIRC, TeX only becomes defined bug-free on Knuth's death. However, it is feature-complete, in the sense that there are no more features to be added, even if such functionality is desperately needed. (Most notably, TeX does have issues with i18n and especially right-to-left text support)

syntheticnature 6y ago

You might be thinking of TeX (and even there it requires special definition), LaTeX's issue list is a bit more active: https://github.com/latex3/latex2e/issues https://github.com/latex3/latex2e/issues

mhh__ 6y ago

It's also decades old and positively crap if you try and treat it like you would a modern programming language. It's way too difficult a problem to do on a whim but quite a lot of time in academia is just thrown down the pit of LaTeX (be that due to incompetence or the design being older than various principles e.g. DRY) LaTeX is certainly the best LaTeX, but it doesn't really have that many competitors.

brundolf 6y ago
What's the reason it doesn't have many competitors? Is it intrinsically too hard of a problem, or is it a matter of network effects (extensions, existing knowledge, existing bodies of work, etc)? Or is there just a lack of motivation?
- mhh__ 6y ago
  Typesetting is hard
  - brundolf 6y ago
    It's something I'm (probably foolishly) tempted to take a swing at. I have a lot of experience with doing layout in HTML/CSS (of which printable typesetting feels like a subset, superficially at least), and I've been getting into writing parsers/doing language design recently. The only problem is I don't know a ton about LaTeX or how people use it other than "it lets you very precisely format documents via special markup, including things like mathematical formulas and diagrams (?), and it's used by lots of academics".
    - zzless 6y ago
      I respect your courage but I have to disagree with your assessment of CSS vs real typography. Layout capabilities of CSS are orders of magnitude less extensive compared to those of TeX. For example it is nearly impossible to say, put a box 2/3 of the width of a container of unknown width. Just the simple task of centering an element has pages dedicated to it and to my knowledge, only CSS3 has a reasonably workable solution. As far as LaTeX's abilities as a programming language go, I have an interpreter for a reasonable subset of C written in TeX (it was an academic exercise but this is just to show what is possible). So it is much more than a mere markup language.
      - brundolf 6y ago
        > For example it is nearly impossible to say, put a box 2/3 of the width of a container of unknown width. Just the simple task of centering an element has pages dedicated to it and to my knowledge, only CSS3 has a reasonably workable solution. It's been a few years since you used CSS :) Both of these things are trivial to do now But to be clear: while I think my CSS experience would give me a grasp of what needs to be expressed and some ideas for how to express it, there is a whole other layer of actually applying that, and reconciling it with the content, which would be a challenge (and is done for you by the browser in CSS' case) > As far as LaTeX's abilities as a programming language go, I have an interpreter for a reasonable subset of C written in TeX (it was an academic exercise but this is just to show what is possible). So it is much more than a mere markup language. I believe you, but I also question whether that level of power is actually being used by people making documents with it, or whether it just adds complexity. I genuinely don't know. But those are the kinds of places one might find improvements to be made.

CJefferson 6y ago

It's full of defects, they'll just never be fixed. Most languges would define the error messages of LaTeX as defects, and once you start including packages, many don't work together. I never realised how awful LaTeX was until I started working with a co-author who is blind, if you just "write LaTeX" you end up with equations, algorithms and tables constantly half-off the page.

johnday 6y ago
LaTeX does report this as a problem, of course - the refrain of "overfull hbox" is near universal (and ignoring the warning is just as universal). Where it fails is in reporting the problem in a meaningful way. This is, of course, very difficult to accomplish, since there is no nice mapping from line-of-TeX to visual error. What's more, any tool which could provide such an error would be so constrained as to be useless for typesetting.