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How can we live good if there exists a significant amount of people rejecting seatbelts? We need to face the reality that on average people make bad choices wh

How can we live good if there exists a significant amount of people rejecting seatbelts? We need to face the reality that on average people make bad choices which leads to substantial negative outcomes for any group. In particular, the COVID-19 pandemic again confirms empirically that humans on average don’t have self-responsibility. How can philosophical ideas that are founded on principles such as “humans have self-responsibility” then still deem credibility for any larger group of people? Why do we need laws that mandate seatbelts? Won’t people wear them by themselves? And if not, what does that mean to the whole house of cards of Liberalism?

quantified 6y ago
Not wearing a seatbelt hurts yourself only. If Covid were an STD there would be huge social pressure on it even though it would be passed less frequently.
- protoman3000 6y ago
  > Not wearing a seatbelt hurts yourself only. And yet people in many countries reject it. If a significant amount of people already makes a bad choice at this point where it affects themselves we cannot expect these people to make good choices to protect others.
  - theplague42 6y ago
    Because the average person has a very bad understanding of risk and consequences? Also, the laws aren't solely about the wearer; not wearing seatbelts at scale has societal costs.
    - protoman3000 6y ago
      Can you please elaborate what is so difficult to understand about the concept that when you drive fast and crash you get thrown out the windshield and possibly die? What does it mean to you that this understanding already fails?
      - theplague42 6y ago
        It's a constant minor annoyance weighed against a fairly rare, hypothetical risk. People ride motorcycles despite vastly higher death and injury rates than cars, cause it's fun. (I did for awhile and might start doing so again one day.) I'm not disagreeing with you I don't think? I agree that it's a really stupid thing to not wear a seatbelt. I just think it's important to consider how to solve these problems without throwing up our hands and saying "people are irredeemably stupid" because that doesn't really do much good for anyone.
    - throwaway0a5e 6y ago
      >Because the average person has a very bad understanding of risk and consequences? When it comes to things that are defined by social consensus (like whether or not one should wear a seat-belt, or smoke indoors, etc) like the hypothetical "average person" is always correct by definition.
  - onedognight 6y ago
    Are you paying extra for all the people who need to clean up your body in the accident you get into? And to bring the coroner out just to verify your time of death. And all the lost time of the other people on the road delayed because you died or were seriously injured when you didn't have to be. We all pay these costs with higher insurance and higher taxes. These costs are a drag on society. Just like smokers, people who don't wear seatbelts should pay more for insurance. Likewise, they should pay more in taxes because they cost more.
- wombatmobile 6y ago
  > If Covid were an STD there would be huge social pressure on HIV/AIDS was that. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/HIV/AIDS https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/HIV/AIDS
  - quantified 6y ago
    Similar in some ways, but also very different. HIV/AIDS had a much higher mortality. Covid-19 is interesting in that it's on the margin for death rates, and its long-term health effects are more varied and subtle than those for, say, polio.
- otterley 6y ago
  It doesn't only hurt yourself. Mandating seatbelts reduces the population's overall risk of injury. When you have a society that has a public fallback for health insurance, reducing the amount of serious injuries has a beneficial impact on lowering the cost of providing healthcare to society.
  - caeril 6y ago
    If this is the rationale, why do countries with public health insurance fallback not also have mandatory BMI or tobacco/alcohol limits, given the much much higher fatality rates of cardiovascular disease and cancer versus automobile accidents?
    - otterley 6y ago
      Because we live in an imperfect world and it takes time for public opinion to adapt to change. Also, we do have BAC limits for driving, and public intoxication prohibitions.
      - nradov 6y ago
        Are you claiming that in a perfect world we would have legal limits on BMI, and totally ban alcohol and tobacco?
        deleted 6y ago
        [deleted]
        otterley 6y ago
        Of course not. I’m saying that complex situations yield inconsistent results, and that way we solve one problem may not be exactly the same way we solve a different problem, even though they may look superficially similar.
    - brewdad 6y ago
      There may not be hard limits on tobacco or alcohol use but they do tend to have very high "sin" taxes on those items. Those who use the most pay the most. It is imperfect but probably the best we can do without going full surveillance state in people's homes.
- m0llusk 6y ago
  Strictly speaking seat belts improve the ability of drivers to stay seated and in control during emergency maneuvers. This factor can have an impact on other drivers.
- medell 6y ago
  This is a common and dangerous misconception. Wearing a seatbelt causes you to be a projectile that bounces around the car, into other people. YouTube "not wearing a seatbelt" and you'll never not wear one again when others are in the car.
  - throwaway0a5e 6y ago
    Those videos are the equivalent of the DARE junk of the 90s but for cars. You should wear a seat-belt because it improves your own survivability not because some scare tactic told you to.
    - medell 6y ago
      It doesn't have to be one or the other. Wear it to protect yourself and others.
- cloverich 6y ago
  I still remember the day I went in to my heart surgery rotation to find that all heart and vascular surgeries for the day were cancelled, because someone in a serious car wreck had used up all the blood.
spidersouris 6y ago
> How can we live good if there exists a significant amount of people rejecting seatbelts? Is there really? One thing that has always struck me since the beginning of this pandemic is precisely why people would be more willing to attach their seatbelts than to wear a mask. Perhaps not the best comparison to make, though.
- protoman3000 6y ago
  > Is there really? From personal experience and the experience of many friends I can confirm (anecdotally, but still) that in Eastern Europe there exist many societies where putting on a seatbelt is socially stigmatized.
  - cglace 6y ago
    As in wearing a seatbelt is seen in a negative light?
diffrinse 6y ago
> We need to face the reality that on average people make bad choices which leads to substantial negative outcomes for any group. In particular, the COVID-19 pandemic again confirms empirically that humans on average don’t have self-responsibility. None of this has to be accepted or conceded to, somehow East Asian countries are able to do to this right, even New Zealand just so we don't start hovering on West vs East, this is absolutely not "humans on average don't have self-responsibility", this is a specific culture that has promoted entitlement, selfishness, materialist hedonism, and ruthless, hackneyed individualism since the late 60s and now the bill has come due
- protoman3000 6y ago
  I would love to agree fully with you but even in China they had to weld people into their apartments because they would go out. But you’re right that culture can bring out the worst out of people and that we are getting the bill now.
  - diffrinse 6y ago
    But I bet they had their mask on when they tried. I could look outside my window in my urban American city and see people walking around without a mask, especially when the weather is nice. Last night my downstairs neighbors had a big loud party and another tenant yelled at them to turn the volume down. In the summer, not one pre-teen or teenager was wearing a mask in my neighborhood. Are we really gonna compare the limited instances of people being weld into their apartment to sheer collective wantonness going on stateside? And I live in a blue city.

quantified 6y ago

Not wearing a seatbelt hurts yourself only. If Covid were an STD there would be huge social pressure on it even though it would be passed less frequently.

protoman3000 6y ago
> Not wearing a seatbelt hurts yourself only. And yet people in many countries reject it. If a significant amount of people already makes a bad choice at this point where it affects themselves we cannot expect these people to make good choices to protect others.
- theplague42 6y ago
  Because the average person has a very bad understanding of risk and consequences? Also, the laws aren't solely about the wearer; not wearing seatbelts at scale has societal costs.
  - protoman3000 6y ago
    Can you please elaborate what is so difficult to understand about the concept that when you drive fast and crash you get thrown out the windshield and possibly die? What does it mean to you that this understanding already fails?
    - theplague42 6y ago
      It's a constant minor annoyance weighed against a fairly rare, hypothetical risk. People ride motorcycles despite vastly higher death and injury rates than cars, cause it's fun. (I did for awhile and might start doing so again one day.) I'm not disagreeing with you I don't think? I agree that it's a really stupid thing to not wear a seatbelt. I just think it's important to consider how to solve these problems without throwing up our hands and saying "people are irredeemably stupid" because that doesn't really do much good for anyone.
  - throwaway0a5e 6y ago
    >Because the average person has a very bad understanding of risk and consequences? When it comes to things that are defined by social consensus (like whether or not one should wear a seat-belt, or smoke indoors, etc) like the hypothetical "average person" is always correct by definition.
- onedognight 6y ago
  Are you paying extra for all the people who need to clean up your body in the accident you get into? And to bring the coroner out just to verify your time of death. And all the lost time of the other people on the road delayed because you died or were seriously injured when you didn't have to be. We all pay these costs with higher insurance and higher taxes. These costs are a drag on society. Just like smokers, people who don't wear seatbelts should pay more for insurance. Likewise, they should pay more in taxes because they cost more.
wombatmobile 6y ago
> If Covid were an STD there would be huge social pressure on HIV/AIDS was that. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/HIV/AIDS https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/HIV/AIDS
- quantified 6y ago
  Similar in some ways, but also very different. HIV/AIDS had a much higher mortality. Covid-19 is interesting in that it's on the margin for death rates, and its long-term health effects are more varied and subtle than those for, say, polio.
otterley 6y ago
It doesn't only hurt yourself. Mandating seatbelts reduces the population's overall risk of injury. When you have a society that has a public fallback for health insurance, reducing the amount of serious injuries has a beneficial impact on lowering the cost of providing healthcare to society.
- caeril 6y ago
  If this is the rationale, why do countries with public health insurance fallback not also have mandatory BMI or tobacco/alcohol limits, given the much much higher fatality rates of cardiovascular disease and cancer versus automobile accidents?
  - otterley 6y ago
    Because we live in an imperfect world and it takes time for public opinion to adapt to change. Also, we do have BAC limits for driving, and public intoxication prohibitions.
    - nradov 6y ago
      Are you claiming that in a perfect world we would have legal limits on BMI, and totally ban alcohol and tobacco?
      - deleted 6y ago
        [deleted]
      - otterley 6y ago
        Of course not. I’m saying that complex situations yield inconsistent results, and that way we solve one problem may not be exactly the same way we solve a different problem, even though they may look superficially similar.
  - brewdad 6y ago
    There may not be hard limits on tobacco or alcohol use but they do tend to have very high "sin" taxes on those items. Those who use the most pay the most. It is imperfect but probably the best we can do without going full surveillance state in people's homes.
m0llusk 6y ago
Strictly speaking seat belts improve the ability of drivers to stay seated and in control during emergency maneuvers. This factor can have an impact on other drivers.
medell 6y ago
This is a common and dangerous misconception. Wearing a seatbelt causes you to be a projectile that bounces around the car, into other people. YouTube "not wearing a seatbelt" and you'll never not wear one again when others are in the car.
- throwaway0a5e 6y ago
  Those videos are the equivalent of the DARE junk of the 90s but for cars. You should wear a seat-belt because it improves your own survivability not because some scare tactic told you to.
  - medell 6y ago
    It doesn't have to be one or the other. Wear it to protect yourself and others.
cloverich 6y ago
I still remember the day I went in to my heart surgery rotation to find that all heart and vascular surgeries for the day were cancelled, because someone in a serious car wreck had used up all the blood.

spidersouris 6y ago

> How can we live good if there exists a significant amount of people rejecting seatbelts? Is there really? One thing that has always struck me since the beginning of this pandemic is precisely why people would be more willing to attach their seatbelts than to wear a mask. Perhaps not the best comparison to make, though.

protoman3000 6y ago
> Is there really? From personal experience and the experience of many friends I can confirm (anecdotally, but still) that in Eastern Europe there exist many societies where putting on a seatbelt is socially stigmatized.
- cglace 6y ago
  As in wearing a seatbelt is seen in a negative light?

diffrinse 6y ago

> We need to face the reality that on average people make bad choices which leads to substantial negative outcomes for any group. In particular, the COVID-19 pandemic again confirms empirically that humans on average don’t have self-responsibility. None of this has to be accepted or conceded to, somehow East Asian countries are able to do to this right, even New Zealand just so we don't start hovering on West vs East, this is absolutely not "humans on average don't have self-responsibility", this is a specific culture that has promoted entitlement, selfishness, materialist hedonism, and ruthless, hackneyed individualism since the late 60s and now the bill has come due

protoman3000 6y ago
I would love to agree fully with you but even in China they had to weld people into their apartments because they would go out. But you’re right that culture can bring out the worst out of people and that we are getting the bill now.
- diffrinse 6y ago
  But I bet they had their mask on when they tried. I could look outside my window in my urban American city and see people walking around without a mask, especially when the weather is nice. Last night my downstairs neighbors had a big loud party and another tenant yelled at them to turn the volume down. In the summer, not one pre-teen or teenager was wearing a mask in my neighborhood. Are we really gonna compare the limited instances of people being weld into their apartment to sheer collective wantonness going on stateside? And I live in a blue city.