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Antifascists aren't holding rallies chanting "Jews will not replace us" and showing up to peaceful protests with weapons to kill protesters. The amount of param

by jolux 6y ago

Antifascists aren't holding rallies chanting "Jews will not replace us" and showing up to peaceful protests with weapons to kill protesters. The amount of paramilitary activity on the left is minimal, especially when compared to the right, adherents of which been caught in several (edit: at least one, Governor Whitmer, I can't find evidence of others right now) plots over the past few months to kidnap and even murder Democratic government officials. I'm not denying that the left has ever used extreme violence in the US. The Weather Underground is the most famous example. I will however argue that those days are over for the left, with the vast majority of leftists being nonviolent and pacifists, and a small few committed to armed defense, but not offense.

rbecker 6y ago
Instead, they're chanting "White silence equals violence". I'm sure demonization of a group that's on the way to becoming a minority will work out great.
anonunivgrad 6y ago
The left and right deploy violence differently. Right wing violence is more precise, organized, surgical. Left wing violence is more chaotic, mob-driven, indiscriminate. Hence the mass rioting and destruction this summer, tacitly supported by major sections of the left-wing power structure in the US (local government and media).
- jolux 6y ago
  Much of the violence at protests this past summer was actually organized by right-wing extremists, possibly as a false flag: https://theintercept.com/2020/07/15/george-floyd-protests-police-far-right-antifa/ https://theintercept.com/2020/07/15/george-floyd-protests-po...
  - anonunivgrad 6y ago
    Fake spin meant to assuage the girondins, the well-to-do leftists. The footage and evidence is extensive and obvious.
    - jolux 6y ago
      This is based on information from BlueLeaks, which you're free to call fake spin, and I am free to disagree with you on.
      - ajvs 6y ago
        There's nothing in that article suggesting a false flag. At most Hina Shamsi suggests that leftist actions are being judged more harshly.
        jolux 6y ago
        Fair enough. Why would right-wingers show up to a left-wing protest with violent intentions? There's no legitimate reason, but I apologize for extrapolating from their actions.
        NicoJuicy 6y ago
        Escalating the situation and change public perception to "hurt the left" seems what I interpret from the situation.
        ajvs 6y ago
        Left-wing protests throughout the summer have frequently turned violent, with it being directed at random passersby, police, businesses, etc. I'm not sure exactly what you're referring to by "violent intentions" but that it has happened frequently in the past is a legitimate reason why right-wingers would show up prepared for the fact that violence will likely commence.
        jolux 6y ago
        You're dodging the question though. Why are right-wingers showing up to a left-wing protest movement in the first place, if they aren't counterprotesting? Wandering around with rifles is not a protest.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
jvanderbot 6y ago
It's not necessarily the actions, but the perceived intent by "the other side" that is important. Events become provocation draws provocation draws backlash, etc etc. I'm a fairly liberal person, but it doesn't take an inhuman amount of mental gymnastics to look at riots, anti-police sentiment, etc, and see a coordinated hostile agenda. I am lucky that I get to talk to both hardcore right and hardcore left people regularly, and they both tend to follow logical interpretations to inevitably polarizing and unhealthy conclusions. Both are not living in current reality, they are projecting their beliefs about the other side's agenda based on what they see on the news, and saying "I don't want to live in that world".
- jolux 6y ago
  What am I supposed to think about the intent of the other side when they're trying to get a legitimate election result overturned to support their preferred presidential candidate? Who isn't living in reality here? This is not a far left position, and it's not the left that is driving FUD about US election integrity.
  - SpicyLemonZest 6y ago
    You're supposed to recognize that many of your positions look equally bizarre and scary to the other side, and conclude that to a significant degree this is a gap in understanding rather than a gap in morals.
    - jolux 6y ago
      Yes, but what matters most is not how my beliefs appear to the other side, but whose beliefs are closest to the truth. I have little control over what other people believe, but I have some control over what I believe, and I strive to be rational and realistic and follow the truth.
      - dahfizz 6y ago
        That depends entirely on what you are trying to achieve. If you want to move beyond self satisfaction and actually effect change, you need to be concerned with how your message is conveyed. What are your beliefs for?
stickyricky 6y ago
> showing up to peaceful protests with weapons to kill protesters. In Portland, an anti-fascist protestor shot a man (rightly or wrongly). Anti-fascists can and do show up with weapons. It is not a false equivalence to say so.
- jolux 6y ago
  That man never got a trial, he was killed extrajudicially: https://www.nytimes.com/2020/10/13/us/michael-reinoehl-antifa-portland-shooting.html https://www.nytimes.com/2020/10/13/us/michael-reinoehl-antif....
  - stickyricky 6y ago
    That does not contradict my point.
    - jolux 6y ago
      You're saying he shot someone. That was alleged, and he was never arrested or charged. Like I said, some leftists are believers in armed self defense. I am not. But the fact of the matter is we will never know the full details of that case. I condemn bringing weapons to protests as fully as I condemn equating the role of violence on the left and the right in America right now.
      - solarhoma 6y ago
        Vice interviewed the person who killed the Trump supporter in cold blood. Yes, there was no official case against the person. But the police knew who the murderer was. This is why a shootout occurred and no other individual is being charged or sought after AFAIK.
        jolux 6y ago
        > the police knew who the murderer was. This is not how the justice system works in America, just so you know. The system you describe is horrifying.
ajvs 6y ago
Antifa have committed numerous enough acts of violence to be labeled a domestic terrorist group and instead of plots you have actual congressmen (Steve Scalise) being shot by a leftist. HN is a place for avoiding our biases not doubling down on them.
- _iyig 6y ago
  Don’t forget Aaron Danielson, Lee Keltner, David Dorn, and Antonio Mays Jr., if for not other reason than to understand anger on the right (and from moderates) at their deaths. edit: Downvoted for relevant, if uncomfortable factual statements on HN? I thought we were better than this. https://www.oregonlive.com/portland/2020/08/aaron-jay-danielson-died-from-gunshot-wound-to-chest-medical-examiner-says.html https://www.oregonlive.com/portland/2020/08/aaron-jay-daniel... https://denver.cbslocal.com/2020/10/16/lee-keltner-wife-wants-justice-denver-shooting-security-guard-matthew-doloff/ https://denver.cbslocal.com/2020/10/16/lee-keltner-wife-want... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_David_Dorn https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_David_Dorn https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/everybody-down-what-happened-at-the-chop-shooting-that-killed-a-teenager-and-led-to-the-areas-shutdown/ https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/everybody-down-wha...
- vixen99 6y ago
  Why not double down? Go on - a few more clicks and you won't even see be reminded anymore of what everyone has seen over the summer in many US cities. And it worked!
- amanaplanacanal 6y ago
  Anybody can label anybody as a terrorist group. I’m not sure that says anything useful. The shooting does count though, as far as I know.
_iyig 6y ago
How quickly we forget the heavily-armed antifa militia that occupied 3 city blocks in downtown Seattle, whose assault rifle-wielding “security team” assaulted journalists, intimidated residents, and murdered an unarmed black teenager. Residents and businesses owners are currently suing the city for abandoning the neighborhood’s police station, providing porta-potties to the armed occupiers, and ceding control of this area to the violent mob for roughly a month. edit: Downvoted for relevant, if uncomfortable factual statements on HN? I thought we were better than this. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capitol_Hill_Autonomous_Zone https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capitol_Hill_Autonomous_Zone https://www.capitolhillseattle.com/2020/07/seattle-times-reports-new-details-in-shooting-death-of-16-year-old-rico-a-southern-california-kid-who-ran-away-to-chop/ https://www.capitolhillseattle.com/2020/07/seattle-times-rep...
- jolux 6y ago
  I'm friends with several people that participated in CHAZ and your assessment of it is incorrect. It was doomed from the start but calling the people occupying it a violent mob is not correct. I personally believe it was a mistake because the people occupying it did not have or want a monopoly on the use of force in their area, meaning that it became a site of unrelated mob and gang violence because the police were not present. That's different from saying it was a violent mob who occupied it with the intent to harm others.
  - _iyig 6y ago
    The armed occupation of the Malheur Wildlife Refuge was also “mostly peaceful.” Much more peaceful than CHAZ/CHOP, in fact. I am friends with people who lived close by and visited the CHAZ/CHOP, and I watched live-streams from the CHAZ nearly 24/7 for the entire span of its existence. It was a lawless area patrolled by gun wielding far-left activists who routinely harassed journalists, ripped phones out of streamers’ hands to delete footage of the “security team’s” deadly mistakes, assaulted visitors of the wrong political stripe, and ultimately were responsible for the shooting deaths of several people. While the atmosphere was more “street festival” during the day, at least for a while, at night and as the occupation wore on it swiftly devolved into violent anarchy. Remember Raz Simone, the local rapper who showed up on the first night with an AK-47? Remember how he handed out rifles to seemingly random untrained people from the trunk of a car? Remember how his crew assaulted and pistol-whipped a graffiti tagger on the very first night of CHAZ/CHOP, on a Facebook Live stream, saying “we are the police now?” Many similar incidents. https://www.foxnews.com/us/seattle-autonomous-zone-leaders-warlord-no-cop-co-op https://www.foxnews.com/us/seattle-autonomous-zone-leaders-w...
baggy_trough 6y ago
This is demonstrably false.
- jolux 6y ago
  Feel free to demonstrate it :)
  - baggy_trough 6y ago
    Certainly there has been far more violence from the left than from the right over the past few years as a read through any newspaper will indicate. I suppose I wouldn't classify most of it as paramilitary in nature though. I would describe antifa as an organized violent mob, at least.
    - jolux 6y ago
      "I've read a lot about it in a newspaper" is not a demonstration. Here, I'll give you some evidence for my position: https://www.nytimes.com/2020/10/24/us/domestic-terrorist-groups.html https://www.nytimes.com/2020/10/24/us/domestic-terrorist-gro...
      - baggy_trough 6y ago
        You honestly dispute the claim that the large majority of political violence in the United States over the past year was leftist in origin?
sfg 6y ago
> Unfortunately, the message will be lost by those who are most in need of hearing it.
- solarhoma 6y ago
  It’s amazing. The top reply to his post does just this.
  - jolux 6y ago
    I care more about what is true than I care about trying to provide false balance between unequal positions. If you see me as missing the message, so be it. A request to treat "both sides" of this situation as equals is a request to ignore reality, which I refuse to do.
    - solarhoma 6y ago
      You are, again, simply speaking of your own reality. Simply because you hold an idea to be true does not make that idea true. This is not mathematics. You cannot ‘prove‘ one side to be true. This applies to my side as well as yours.
mistrial9 6y ago
I believe there is a mentally-ill man down the hall that thinks he is Antifa, and definitely plans violence all the time, but he is too weak and unstable to do it in reality.. perhaps a powerful image for his weak and unstable mind to fixate on.. does this equate to a real threat? hard to say, he lives largely in a fantasy world and has few contacts with people.. Its no secret that the mentally ill, badly damaged and socially disadvantaged have historially flocked to extreme campaigns -> on either side <- of this inflamed debate Peace as espoused by various religions, becomes a powerful antidote as a social message -- I support that messege, personally
- jolux 6y ago
  It's not primarily mentally ill people who call themselves antifascists or Proud Boys though, and believing that is going to severely hamper your analysis of them.
throwthrowawyy 6y ago
Man accused of hatching plot to kidnap Whitmer is BLM supporter and made comments critical of police >> https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/man-accused-of-hatching-plot-to-kidnap-whitmer-is-blm-supporter-and-made-comments-critical-of-police/ar-BB19UUXD https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/man-accused-of-hatching-pl... In the age of agent provocateurs[0], it is hard to really know the truth even if you are present at the scene. There is only so much time in a day. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agent_provocateur https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agent_provocateur
- jolux 6y ago
  https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2020/oct/21/viral-image/looking-ideologies-whitmer-kidnapping-plot-suspect/ https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2020/oct/21/viral-imag... >There’s no evidence that the suspects arrested in connection with a plot to kidnap Michigan Gov. Gretchen Whitmer are antifa activists. >Before his arrest, one of the suspects attended a Black Lives Matter protest. Another suspect criticized the movement. >State and federal documents make no mention of antifa or Black Lives Matter. Rather, they reference an anti-government militia group. >Michigan’s attorney general has said white supremacist and anti-government groups acted “in concert based on a shared extreme ideology.”
jhallenworld 6y ago
What should the left do about the looting? Police confronting protesters in the front, looting going on in the rear.. (Here is a reminder video:) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vr3LrRUfJsY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vr3LrRUfJsY I am all for BLM protests in general, but the looting only provokes more extreme responses from the right. I also blame the police- they rather confront peaceful protesters than go after actual thugs. Having a class of people redlined into ghettos who have no stake in the wealthier parts of society is the root of this, but what to do about it?
jimbob45 6y ago
I’m not sure why you’re ignoring BLM. They’re the biggest terrorist organization of the last year, organizing riots and orchestrating widespread looting. How can you call the left peaceable after that?
eli_gottlieb 6y ago
>Antifascists aren't holding rallies chanting "Jews will not replace us" and showing up to peaceful protests with weapons to kill protesters. They're not [1][2]? [1] -- https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2006/aug/08/weareallhizbullahnowreall https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2006/aug/08/wearea... [2] -- https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/oct/29/key-findings-of-the-ehrc-inquiry-into-labour-antisemitism https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/oct/29/key-finding...
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
dang 6y ago
Please don't take HN threads further into ideological or political flamewar. The last thing we need here is yet another angry, generic argument between left ideology and right ideology. Those are utterly repetitive, and therefore tedious, and therefore off topic on HN. That's not to say the issues aren't important; of course they are. But this site has a particular scope and repetitive flamewars aren't in it. https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&sort=byDate&type=comment&query=generic%20ideolog%20by:dang https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&sor... https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html Please see also https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25086595 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25086595. 40+ comments in a thread like this is beyond excessive.

by jolux 6y ago

rbecker 6y ago

Instead, they're chanting "White silence equals violence". I'm sure demonization of a group that's on the way to becoming a minority will work out great.

anonunivgrad 6y ago

The left and right deploy violence differently. Right wing violence is more precise, organized, surgical. Left wing violence is more chaotic, mob-driven, indiscriminate. Hence the mass rioting and destruction this summer, tacitly supported by major sections of the left-wing power structure in the US (local government and media).

jolux 6y ago
Much of the violence at protests this past summer was actually organized by right-wing extremists, possibly as a false flag: https://theintercept.com/2020/07/15/george-floyd-protests-police-far-right-antifa/ https://theintercept.com/2020/07/15/george-floyd-protests-po...
- anonunivgrad 6y ago
  Fake spin meant to assuage the girondins, the well-to-do leftists. The footage and evidence is extensive and obvious.
  - jolux 6y ago
    This is based on information from BlueLeaks, which you're free to call fake spin, and I am free to disagree with you on.
    - ajvs 6y ago
      There's nothing in that article suggesting a false flag. At most Hina Shamsi suggests that leftist actions are being judged more harshly.
      - jolux 6y ago
        Fair enough. Why would right-wingers show up to a left-wing protest with violent intentions? There's no legitimate reason, but I apologize for extrapolating from their actions.
        NicoJuicy 6y ago
        Escalating the situation and change public perception to "hurt the left" seems what I interpret from the situation.
        ajvs 6y ago
        Left-wing protests throughout the summer have frequently turned violent, with it being directed at random passersby, police, businesses, etc. I'm not sure exactly what you're referring to by "violent intentions" but that it has happened frequently in the past is a legitimate reason why right-wingers would show up prepared for the fact that violence will likely commence.
        jolux 6y ago
        You're dodging the question though. Why are right-wingers showing up to a left-wing protest movement in the first place, if they aren't counterprotesting? Wandering around with rifles is not a protest.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]

jvanderbot 6y ago

It's not necessarily the actions, but the perceived intent by "the other side" that is important. Events become provocation draws provocation draws backlash, etc etc. I'm a fairly liberal person, but it doesn't take an inhuman amount of mental gymnastics to look at riots, anti-police sentiment, etc, and see a coordinated hostile agenda. I am lucky that I get to talk to both hardcore right and hardcore left people regularly, and they both tend to follow logical interpretations to inevitably polarizing and unhealthy conclusions. Both are not living in current reality, they are projecting their beliefs about the other side's agenda based on what they see on the news, and saying "I don't want to live in that world".

jolux 6y ago
What am I supposed to think about the intent of the other side when they're trying to get a legitimate election result overturned to support their preferred presidential candidate? Who isn't living in reality here? This is not a far left position, and it's not the left that is driving FUD about US election integrity.
- SpicyLemonZest 6y ago
  You're supposed to recognize that many of your positions look equally bizarre and scary to the other side, and conclude that to a significant degree this is a gap in understanding rather than a gap in morals.
  - jolux 6y ago
    Yes, but what matters most is not how my beliefs appear to the other side, but whose beliefs are closest to the truth. I have little control over what other people believe, but I have some control over what I believe, and I strive to be rational and realistic and follow the truth.
    - dahfizz 6y ago
      That depends entirely on what you are trying to achieve. If you want to move beyond self satisfaction and actually effect change, you need to be concerned with how your message is conveyed. What are your beliefs for?

stickyricky 6y ago

> showing up to peaceful protests with weapons to kill protesters. In Portland, an anti-fascist protestor shot a man (rightly or wrongly). Anti-fascists can and do show up with weapons. It is not a false equivalence to say so.

jolux 6y ago
That man never got a trial, he was killed extrajudicially: https://www.nytimes.com/2020/10/13/us/michael-reinoehl-antifa-portland-shooting.html https://www.nytimes.com/2020/10/13/us/michael-reinoehl-antif....
- stickyricky 6y ago
  That does not contradict my point.
  - jolux 6y ago
    You're saying he shot someone. That was alleged, and he was never arrested or charged. Like I said, some leftists are believers in armed self defense. I am not. But the fact of the matter is we will never know the full details of that case. I condemn bringing weapons to protests as fully as I condemn equating the role of violence on the left and the right in America right now.
    - solarhoma 6y ago
      Vice interviewed the person who killed the Trump supporter in cold blood. Yes, there was no official case against the person. But the police knew who the murderer was. This is why a shootout occurred and no other individual is being charged or sought after AFAIK.
      - jolux 6y ago
        > the police knew who the murderer was. This is not how the justice system works in America, just so you know. The system you describe is horrifying.

ajvs 6y ago

Antifa have committed numerous enough acts of violence to be labeled a domestic terrorist group and instead of plots you have actual congressmen (Steve Scalise) being shot by a leftist. HN is a place for avoiding our biases not doubling down on them.

_iyig 6y ago
Don’t forget Aaron Danielson, Lee Keltner, David Dorn, and Antonio Mays Jr., if for not other reason than to understand anger on the right (and from moderates) at their deaths. edit: Downvoted for relevant, if uncomfortable factual statements on HN? I thought we were better than this. https://www.oregonlive.com/portland/2020/08/aaron-jay-danielson-died-from-gunshot-wound-to-chest-medical-examiner-says.html https://www.oregonlive.com/portland/2020/08/aaron-jay-daniel... https://denver.cbslocal.com/2020/10/16/lee-keltner-wife-wants-justice-denver-shooting-security-guard-matthew-doloff/ https://denver.cbslocal.com/2020/10/16/lee-keltner-wife-want... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_David_Dorn https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_David_Dorn https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/everybody-down-what-happened-at-the-chop-shooting-that-killed-a-teenager-and-led-to-the-areas-shutdown/ https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/everybody-down-wha...
vixen99 6y ago
Why not double down? Go on - a few more clicks and you won't even see be reminded anymore of what everyone has seen over the summer in many US cities. And it worked!
amanaplanacanal 6y ago
Anybody can label anybody as a terrorist group. I’m not sure that says anything useful. The shooting does count though, as far as I know.

_iyig 6y ago

How quickly we forget the heavily-armed antifa militia that occupied 3 city blocks in downtown Seattle, whose assault rifle-wielding “security team” assaulted journalists, intimidated residents, and murdered an unarmed black teenager. Residents and businesses owners are currently suing the city for abandoning the neighborhood’s police station, providing porta-potties to the armed occupiers, and ceding control of this area to the violent mob for roughly a month. edit: Downvoted for relevant, if uncomfortable factual statements on HN? I thought we were better than this. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capitol_Hill_Autonomous_Zone https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capitol_Hill_Autonomous_Zone https://www.capitolhillseattle.com/2020/07/seattle-times-reports-new-details-in-shooting-death-of-16-year-old-rico-a-southern-california-kid-who-ran-away-to-chop/ https://www.capitolhillseattle.com/2020/07/seattle-times-rep...

jolux 6y ago
I'm friends with several people that participated in CHAZ and your assessment of it is incorrect. It was doomed from the start but calling the people occupying it a violent mob is not correct. I personally believe it was a mistake because the people occupying it did not have or want a monopoly on the use of force in their area, meaning that it became a site of unrelated mob and gang violence because the police were not present. That's different from saying it was a violent mob who occupied it with the intent to harm others.
- _iyig 6y ago
  The armed occupation of the Malheur Wildlife Refuge was also “mostly peaceful.” Much more peaceful than CHAZ/CHOP, in fact. I am friends with people who lived close by and visited the CHAZ/CHOP, and I watched live-streams from the CHAZ nearly 24/7 for the entire span of its existence. It was a lawless area patrolled by gun wielding far-left activists who routinely harassed journalists, ripped phones out of streamers’ hands to delete footage of the “security team’s” deadly mistakes, assaulted visitors of the wrong political stripe, and ultimately were responsible for the shooting deaths of several people. While the atmosphere was more “street festival” during the day, at least for a while, at night and as the occupation wore on it swiftly devolved into violent anarchy. Remember Raz Simone, the local rapper who showed up on the first night with an AK-47? Remember how he handed out rifles to seemingly random untrained people from the trunk of a car? Remember how his crew assaulted and pistol-whipped a graffiti tagger on the very first night of CHAZ/CHOP, on a Facebook Live stream, saying “we are the police now?” Many similar incidents. https://www.foxnews.com/us/seattle-autonomous-zone-leaders-warlord-no-cop-co-op https://www.foxnews.com/us/seattle-autonomous-zone-leaders-w...

baggy_trough 6y ago

This is demonstrably false.

jolux 6y ago
Feel free to demonstrate it :)
- baggy_trough 6y ago
  Certainly there has been far more violence from the left than from the right over the past few years as a read through any newspaper will indicate. I suppose I wouldn't classify most of it as paramilitary in nature though. I would describe antifa as an organized violent mob, at least.
  - jolux 6y ago
    "I've read a lot about it in a newspaper" is not a demonstration. Here, I'll give you some evidence for my position: https://www.nytimes.com/2020/10/24/us/domestic-terrorist-groups.html https://www.nytimes.com/2020/10/24/us/domestic-terrorist-gro...
    - baggy_trough 6y ago
      You honestly dispute the claim that the large majority of political violence in the United States over the past year was leftist in origin?

sfg 6y ago

> Unfortunately, the message will be lost by those who are most in need of hearing it.

solarhoma 6y ago
It’s amazing. The top reply to his post does just this.
- jolux 6y ago
  I care more about what is true than I care about trying to provide false balance between unequal positions. If you see me as missing the message, so be it. A request to treat "both sides" of this situation as equals is a request to ignore reality, which I refuse to do.
  - solarhoma 6y ago
    You are, again, simply speaking of your own reality. Simply because you hold an idea to be true does not make that idea true. This is not mathematics. You cannot ‘prove‘ one side to be true. This applies to my side as well as yours.

mistrial9 6y ago

I believe there is a mentally-ill man down the hall that thinks he is Antifa, and definitely plans violence all the time, but he is too weak and unstable to do it in reality.. perhaps a powerful image for his weak and unstable mind to fixate on.. does this equate to a real threat? hard to say, he lives largely in a fantasy world and has few contacts with people.. Its no secret that the mentally ill, badly damaged and socially disadvantaged have historially flocked to extreme campaigns -> on either side <- of this inflamed debate Peace as espoused by various religions, becomes a powerful antidote as a social message -- I support that messege, personally

jolux 6y ago
It's not primarily mentally ill people who call themselves antifascists or Proud Boys though, and believing that is going to severely hamper your analysis of them.

throwthrowawyy 6y ago

Man accused of hatching plot to kidnap Whitmer is BLM supporter and made comments critical of police >> https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/man-accused-of-hatching-plot-to-kidnap-whitmer-is-blm-supporter-and-made-comments-critical-of-police/ar-BB19UUXD https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/man-accused-of-hatching-pl... In the age of agent provocateurs[0], it is hard to really know the truth even if you are present at the scene. There is only so much time in a day. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agent_provocateur https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agent_provocateur

jolux 6y ago
https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2020/oct/21/viral-image/looking-ideologies-whitmer-kidnapping-plot-suspect/ https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2020/oct/21/viral-imag... >There’s no evidence that the suspects arrested in connection with a plot to kidnap Michigan Gov. Gretchen Whitmer are antifa activists. >Before his arrest, one of the suspects attended a Black Lives Matter protest. Another suspect criticized the movement. >State and federal documents make no mention of antifa or Black Lives Matter. Rather, they reference an anti-government militia group. >Michigan’s attorney general has said white supremacist and anti-government groups acted “in concert based on a shared extreme ideology.”

jhallenworld 6y ago

What should the left do about the looting? Police confronting protesters in the front, looting going on in the rear.. (Here is a reminder video:) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vr3LrRUfJsY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vr3LrRUfJsY I am all for BLM protests in general, but the looting only provokes more extreme responses from the right. I also blame the police- they rather confront peaceful protesters than go after actual thugs. Having a class of people redlined into ghettos who have no stake in the wealthier parts of society is the root of this, but what to do about it?

jimbob45 6y ago

I’m not sure why you’re ignoring BLM. They’re the biggest terrorist organization of the last year, organizing riots and orchestrating widespread looting. How can you call the left peaceable after that?

eli_gottlieb 6y ago

>Antifascists aren't holding rallies chanting "Jews will not replace us" and showing up to peaceful protests with weapons to kill protesters. They're not [1][2]? [1] -- https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2006/aug/08/weareallhizbullahnowreall https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2006/aug/08/wearea... [2] -- https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/oct/29/key-findings-of-the-ehrc-inquiry-into-labour-antisemitism https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/oct/29/key-finding...

deleted 6y ago

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dang 6y ago

Please don't take HN threads further into ideological or political flamewar. The last thing we need here is yet another angry, generic argument between left ideology and right ideology. Those are utterly repetitive, and therefore tedious, and therefore off topic on HN. That's not to say the issues aren't important; of course they are. But this site has a particular scope and repetitive flamewars aren't in it. https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&sort=byDate&type=comment&query=generic%20ideolog%20by:dang https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&sor... https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html Please see also https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25086595 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25086595. 40+ comments in a thread like this is beyond excessive.