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But there is quite simple and obvious evidence of discrimination: the percentage of technical jobs which go to women. Not accepting this as evidence and demand

But there is quite simple and obvious evidence of discrimination: the percentage of technical jobs which go to women. Not accepting this as evidence and demanding that your own standards for evidence are met (without saying exactly what that would involve, so you could later reject any other evidence that is provided) before allowing any corrective action, is yet another way that this discrimination is perpetuated.

raxxorrax 6y ago
When I studied CS and electrical engineering we started with 120 students. 5 were women. 15 students made it in regular time from which 1 was a women. You conclusion isn't obvious, on the contrary, there are contradictions. Where should the women in tech have come from? Would you also think that nurses discriminate against men? No, you only think discrimination is an issue in spaces where men are overrepresented. That is sexism. > allowing any corrective action If the reasoning is already that bad, I have very little faith in this corrective action.
- the_only_law 6y ago
  > Would you also think that nurses discriminate against men? No, you only think discrimination is an issue in spaces where men are overrepresented. That is sexism. Ah yes, the hallmark of good faith discussion asking a question and answering it for them.
  - raxxorrax 6y ago
    A rhetorical question is not a bad faith approach to discussions contrary to leveling the accusation itself. The argument is still there if you want to have a go at it.
- throwaway2245 6y ago
  > When I studied CS and electrical engineering we started with 120 students... 15 students made it in regular time That sounds like a shockingly badly organised course with many barriers to success. Such barriers to success are likely to fall harder on women and minorities (who are more likely to have caring duties, less support in their social network, and will face general discrimination). With even the facts you have given, it would be unsurprising to me that disproportionately few women bother to apply: even ridiculously fewer women start than on a typical course. I would be embarrassed if I were an educator or organiser for that course. > Would you also think that nurses discriminate against men? No. Although this is not directly analogous to anything I have said, I am giving a good faith answer. I think that nursing is an underpaid profession because it is seen as women's work - just as caring work is often unpaid. I'm not aware that men face significant barriers when they choose to enter nursing. The careers in which men are over-represented and women are under-represented tend to be highly-paid and/or prestige jobs. So, that's quite a different situation and points to societal discrimination by gender against women. Computer Science as an industry is relevant here in that: women were initially over-represented, until it came to be seen as a prestige career and started garnering higher pay, and now they are increasingly under-represented.
  - raxxorrax 6y ago
    I agree that it is undervalued and maybe because it is seen as a women's job, but that part is speculation. I live in a country with stronger social systems and there are countless interests that keep the pay as low as possible. You would not find a single person that says that nursing isn't important. As I said, you if you want to have a tech job, you currently almost can choose where to work. Men and women alike, so I cannot see that many barriers. I don't buy into the prestige argument at all, it feels far removed from reality. I didn't pick my profession because of prestige and I don't think many people do. This isn't the showbusiness. Do you know what people with strong affinity to tech were called? Nerds. The good payrate is very recent, as are the gender discussions btw.

raxxorrax 6y ago

When I studied CS and electrical engineering we started with 120 students. 5 were women. 15 students made it in regular time from which 1 was a women. You conclusion isn't obvious, on the contrary, there are contradictions. Where should the women in tech have come from? Would you also think that nurses discriminate against men? No, you only think discrimination is an issue in spaces where men are overrepresented. That is sexism. > allowing any corrective action If the reasoning is already that bad, I have very little faith in this corrective action.

the_only_law 6y ago
> Would you also think that nurses discriminate against men? No, you only think discrimination is an issue in spaces where men are overrepresented. That is sexism. Ah yes, the hallmark of good faith discussion asking a question and answering it for them.
- raxxorrax 6y ago
  A rhetorical question is not a bad faith approach to discussions contrary to leveling the accusation itself. The argument is still there if you want to have a go at it.
throwaway2245 6y ago
> When I studied CS and electrical engineering we started with 120 students... 15 students made it in regular time That sounds like a shockingly badly organised course with many barriers to success. Such barriers to success are likely to fall harder on women and minorities (who are more likely to have caring duties, less support in their social network, and will face general discrimination). With even the facts you have given, it would be unsurprising to me that disproportionately few women bother to apply: even ridiculously fewer women start than on a typical course. I would be embarrassed if I were an educator or organiser for that course. > Would you also think that nurses discriminate against men? No. Although this is not directly analogous to anything I have said, I am giving a good faith answer. I think that nursing is an underpaid profession because it is seen as women's work - just as caring work is often unpaid. I'm not aware that men face significant barriers when they choose to enter nursing. The careers in which men are over-represented and women are under-represented tend to be highly-paid and/or prestige jobs. So, that's quite a different situation and points to societal discrimination by gender against women. Computer Science as an industry is relevant here in that: women were initially over-represented, until it came to be seen as a prestige career and started garnering higher pay, and now they are increasingly under-represented.
- raxxorrax 6y ago
  I agree that it is undervalued and maybe because it is seen as a women's job, but that part is speculation. I live in a country with stronger social systems and there are countless interests that keep the pay as low as possible. You would not find a single person that says that nursing isn't important. As I said, you if you want to have a tech job, you currently almost can choose where to work. Men and women alike, so I cannot see that many barriers. I don't buy into the prestige argument at all, it feels far removed from reality. I didn't pick my profession because of prestige and I don't think many people do. This isn't the showbusiness. Do you know what people with strong affinity to tech were called? Nerds. The good payrate is very recent, as are the gender discussions btw.