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You pointed out a core problem here, and a common blindspot with the HN crowd: > continuing to use Apple/Google/Microsoft That is probably 98%+ of devices th

You pointed out a core problem here, and a common blindspot with the HN crowd: > continuing to use Apple/Google/Microsoft That is probably 98%+ of devices that most typical people use for everyday computing, across phone, laptop, and desktop. Whether it is an android device, an iPhone, a Dell laptop or a new M1 macbook you are beholden to a corporation that doesn't care about privacy. I would argue that Apple cares a bit more, and I really hope they respond to the most recent shit show with some changes, but I'm not holding my breath. And before "have you tried this *nix distro??" comments appear, they are still too hard to setup and nowhere near as user-friendly for most people on an everyday basis. And hell, if you setup Chrome and Gsuite as your default tools of choice, as many do (or are forced to because their job) how much are you really breaking free anyways? I don't know the solution, but its clear that in the war between privacy and convenience and usability that privacy is on the ropes and its the last round of the fight.

qz2 6y ago
I’ve worked out that breaking free from this is just not for the average person. If you have the power then stand outside and look in but there’s absolutely nothing you can do about the churn other than watch it burn. I’ll carry on educating people but even suggesting this might be an issue is drowned out by the marketing machines of the large vendors and downvoted into oblivion even here. That is unless there is some large story that something fishy is going on. But a big story is made of a thousand small ones which people don’t care about. Look where fighting Facebook and political influence got us. Nowhere.
est31 6y ago
You are totally right that Linux is only a single digit percentage in user share if you look at all computers deployed world-wide. However, in the developer sphere, GNU/Linux is way more represented. In the Stack Overflow 2020 survey, 26% of people said they were using a Linux based OS [0]. This number has been gradually increasing over the years so further growth is expectable. It's less than one percent less than the Mac OS share of 27%, but I'm not sure how much noise there is. So Linux is usable enough for a growing community of developers, and many laptop/computer vendors targeting the developer market offer GNU/Linux as a preinstalled option. As a result, at least for software people, Linux is a real privacy preserving alternative on the Desktop. HN is a software forum, and the blog post was also made with people educated about software as the recipients. So I think the post you are replying to should be understood not in a global context but in a context of the IT crowd. Of course, it's not beautiful that Linux is less of an alternative to people who need to use complicated niche ISV software, but generally any industry can make the move if there is a subset of users pushing towards GNU/Linux. [0]: https://insights.stackoverflow.com/survey/2020#technology-developers-primary-operating-systems https://insights.stackoverflow.com/survey/2020#technology-de...
- arcticbull 6y ago
  Every company I've worked at for the last 10 years has developed exclusively on macOS. Linux is fine, but it doesn't just work, and it needs to in order to gain a foothold not just in the developer community but with the general public -- that's the lesson Android has taught us. Until it does it will not budge the numbers. It just won't. The real apologism here comes from the Linux community, who believes that by virtue of existing, and not being an Apple or Microsoft project, it should be widely accepted in spite of being a distant third in usability. Linux needs to step up its game or it will forever remain a distant third. The general public does not care about "free and open source" -- heck they barely care about privacy at all. That's just us, the HN crowd. I love Linux in theory, I use it a lot, but my daily driver is macOS. Frankly it likely will remain so even as I transition to being an Android engineer in the coming months.
  - Un1corn 6y ago
    Have you really used a desktop Linux desktop recently? Sure it might have some problems but Fedora for example is in no way "a distant third in usability". I haven't used MacOS for a couple of years but I can say for certain that Linux is not that far behind Windows and sometimes even ahead. I think the main problem is lack of application support but specifically for developers most applications are already there.
    - mcny 6y ago
      I use Fedora. I work on dotnet. I've not been able to run my azure functions on Linux at all. Even on windows, I have to start the azure storage emulator directly and then start func (using the full path). On Linux, azurite is not the same thing as azure storage emulator. So I must use windows for dotnet development. Even after four years of dot net core. That being said, Linux isn't the problem. Gnome 3 isn't the problem either. Flatpak works great. There are a few regressions once in a while though. For example, I'm unable to use my lenovo flex 14 (and ryzen 3500U) built in mic since I upgraded to Fedora 33. Looks the issue well be fixed in kernel 5.9 but for the moment I'm on 5.8. But it has been great mostly. If I could use it for work, that'd be great.
damnencryption 6y ago
> And before "have you tried this *nix distro??" comments appear, they are still too hard to setup and nowhere near as user-friendly for most people on an everyday basis. This isn't true. This perception continues to hurt the Linux community along with others. Use a properly supported -buntu distro and you are good.
- rsanheim 6y ago
  I have. Many times. Every time I end up debugging suspend/resume, graphic drivers, multiple monitor, etc. I spend enough time changing config files for my job, I’m not spending my own time doing it just to get basic functionality working for workstations.
  - Aeolun 6y ago
    I think it’s fairly simple to avoid this by buying hardware that is proven to be effective with the OS. E.g. buy a machine with *buntu preinstalled. Same as with mac really.
    - brnt 6y ago
      Even so, I install Ubuntu on a wide range of machines, laptops included, and I can't recall having any hardware related issues since, oh, 2005 or so? Parent must be very unlucky, or in fact not realise it is their tweaking and tuning that causes issues.
      - barrenko 6y ago
        True, installing Ubuntu is probably simpler than installing Windows, it doesn't ask you a million privacy shirking questions.
        6510 6y ago
        Lets call this user-friendly.
      - 6y ago
zakki 6y ago
>>> And before "have you tried this *nix distro??" comments appear, they are still too hard to setup I think why Apple, Android, Windows has the advantage is none of those 3 OSes require installation by most people. Why treat Linux differently? >>> and nowhere near as user-friendly for most people on an everyday basis User-Friendliness, I think, is more on day to day interaction. It will be interesting if there is a study in an area with low computer/smartphone interaction. Split them into 4 groups. Each group has their own OS. Later on they will be tested with some tasks.
- marcus_holmes 6y ago
  I bought a Purism laptop with Linux installed, and it was definitely as simple to get going on that as it was a Macbook. Actually even easier because there's no "You must have an AppleID to use this machine - if you don't have one go and register now" step, and no associated problems with that.
dasKrokodil 6y ago
> I would argue that Apple cares a bit more Have you read the article? Spoiler: They don't.
- randlet 6y ago
  Exactly. Apple has done a good job of selling the "we care about your privacy" line, but it's still just a line they're feeding you.
  - rsanheim 6y ago
    If you compare how Siri works compared to comparable services, or Apple Maps, this just isn’t true.
- zepto 6y ago
  The active word is more. The article doesn’t examine other platforms at all, so doesn’t address this.
fxtentacle 6y ago
Setting up Ubuntu was easy enough. But the file manager locks up regularly, switching between multiple windows of the same app with alt+tab doesn't work reliably, and I actually had to Google how to create a new folder. The stock picture viewer is lacking information such as ICC profile and when I installed the recommended Gimp, it was a mess of windows and the save dialog was horrible. I suffer through all of it because I need docker with gpu support, but it's honestly a lot worse than what I expected.
- jackcviers3 6y ago
  I have not had any of these experiences with Ubuntu. Installing an OS on any new personal computer is much more difficult than when they had dvd drives. But once installed on compatible hardware, the Gnome 3 desktop use is nearly the same experience as Mac OS. Installing software is usually a matter of searching the software menu or downloading a .deb and double-clicking to run, and the New Folder button is prominent in the file window. The office suite is easy to use. Thunderbird is as easy to setup as Mail. Networking and devices are easy to configure from the gui, and Firefox and VSCode run without crashes. Proprietary video drivers for common hardware can be downloaded and installed via the gui. It's at least as usable from an admin standpoint as Windows 10, and from a user standpoint as Mac OS, albeit with a much smaller "app store" experience.
- 6510 6y ago
  I like Thunar for file browsing. I would give it 6 stars out of 5.
- turbinerneiter 6y ago
  So you weren't able to come up with the idea of right-clicking without Google?
  - fxtentacle 6y ago
    Right clicking didn't work. The main menu also didn't offer the option. You need to open a burger menu in the top right corner. And then the new folder button is purely an icon and it doesn't show a folder.
dingaling 6y ago
> Whether it is an android device, an iPhone, a Dell laptop or a new M1 macbook you are beholden to a corporation that doesn't care about privacy. Yet Dell and Lenovo offer computers with Linux pre-installed, but so many technical people ignore them because Apple is shiny and fast. If this trend continues then Linux and other open source OS will eventually exist only as a virtualized guest inside a locked-down proprietary system. There is genuine choice in the market now, but in ten years there won't be if people keep chasing baubles.
- diab0lic 6y ago
  > Yet Dell and Lenovo offer computers with Linux pre-installed, but so many technical people ignore them because Apple is shiny and fast. I got a Lenovo last year with Ubuntu preinstalled. It was he "blessed hardware". Wifi didn't work after wake / sleep and my connection via usb-c to my monitor was unusable. I switched back to a mac because I wanted to work, not fix my tools. These aren't one off anecdotes, there are dozens of people in this thread with the same story slightly different. This isn't people going to Apple because it is shiny, it's going to Apple because managing hardware isn't their job. Either verbally address that meaningfully or drop the condescending attitude.
II2II 6y ago
> And before "have you tried this *nix distro??" comments appear, they are still too hard to setup and nowhere near as user-friendly for most people on an everyday basis. Uh, no. There are many reasons why people don't use Linux. The easy of setup and use lines are pure nonsense. Many Linux distributions have been easier to setup and use since at least the introduction of Ubuntu, and perhaps earlier. Just pop in the live installation media, try it out for a bit to ensure your hardware is compatible, then run an installation program that asks questions that make sense to people rather than marketers. Getting the applications you need installed has involved using a store-like interface for longer than software stores have existed on commercial desktop operating systems. So why is it perceived as harder? One reason: users typically have to install their operating system, while end users rarely see the process on commercial operating systems. Second reason: those who do install their own OS typically dedicate their system to commercial operating systems, yet use dual-boot for Linux (which will add technical steps). Third reason: those making the transition may try to install commercial applications via a VM or WINE due to compatibility, familiarity, or (periodically) the lack of an open source alternative. In other words, it is perceived as harder because people make it harder. As someone who has been using Linux for decades, I find the setup and user friendliness of something like Windows far inferior to to Linux. Yes, part of that is due to familiarity. On the other hand, some of it is inherent due to there being fewer restrictions with open source software.
- kybernetikos 6y ago
  Fifth reason - many many laptops have at least some piece of hardware or behaviour that requires fiddling to get to work on major linux systems. Sometimes it's power management, sometimes it's running with multiple monitors or 3d acceleration or the touchscreen, sometimes it's getting the touchpad to work properly or the fingerprint reader.... In my experience, there's usually something.
  - II2II 6y ago
    While this may be true, we should still be impressed by the number of laptops Linux operates flawlessly on. Very few people would expect Windows to run properly on a MacBook and far fewer would expect macOS to run on a generic PC. Yet people expect Linux to work flawlessly on almost anything thrown at it. From my experience, it does a very good job of this (at least in recent years).
feanaro 6y ago
> And before "have you tried this *nix distro??" comments appear Your style of comment is also quite the meme at this point, though. I always reply with: if my dad, mom, grandfather and other 10+ members of my family can use Mint and I have to do minimal maintenance for them, much less frequently than with Windows, then so can you.
- AnIdiotOnTheNet 6y ago
  Yeah, because your family members definitely represent literally every possible use case in the the world anyone could possibly have for a computer. Ugh.
  - feanaro 6y ago
    Did I say definitely, literally every and could possibly? Notice to what I am replying: > [..] they are still too hard to setup and nowhere near as user-friendly for most people on an everyday basis. I think my comment is a fair rebuttal of nowhere near and most. If it was true, all of my family members would have to be outliers, which is statistically improbable. The more credible explanation is that it is not really true (and in my opinion, it clearly isn't).
    - AnIdiotOnTheNet 6y ago
      I think you're being disingenuous about what constitutes "most people" in the context of desktop computing, but alright fair enough, I I seem to have read more into your comment than was intended.

qz2 6y ago

I’ve worked out that breaking free from this is just not for the average person. If you have the power then stand outside and look in but there’s absolutely nothing you can do about the churn other than watch it burn. I’ll carry on educating people but even suggesting this might be an issue is drowned out by the marketing machines of the large vendors and downvoted into oblivion even here. That is unless there is some large story that something fishy is going on. But a big story is made of a thousand small ones which people don’t care about. Look where fighting Facebook and political influence got us. Nowhere.

est31 6y ago

You are totally right that Linux is only a single digit percentage in user share if you look at all computers deployed world-wide. However, in the developer sphere, GNU/Linux is way more represented. In the Stack Overflow 2020 survey, 26% of people said they were using a Linux based OS [0]. This number has been gradually increasing over the years so further growth is expectable. It's less than one percent less than the Mac OS share of 27%, but I'm not sure how much noise there is. So Linux is usable enough for a growing community of developers, and many laptop/computer vendors targeting the developer market offer GNU/Linux as a preinstalled option. As a result, at least for software people, Linux is a real privacy preserving alternative on the Desktop. HN is a software forum, and the blog post was also made with people educated about software as the recipients. So I think the post you are replying to should be understood not in a global context but in a context of the IT crowd. Of course, it's not beautiful that Linux is less of an alternative to people who need to use complicated niche ISV software, but generally any industry can make the move if there is a subset of users pushing towards GNU/Linux. [0]: https://insights.stackoverflow.com/survey/2020#technology-developers-primary-operating-systems https://insights.stackoverflow.com/survey/2020#technology-de...

arcticbull 6y ago
Every company I've worked at for the last 10 years has developed exclusively on macOS. Linux is fine, but it doesn't just work, and it needs to in order to gain a foothold not just in the developer community but with the general public -- that's the lesson Android has taught us. Until it does it will not budge the numbers. It just won't. The real apologism here comes from the Linux community, who believes that by virtue of existing, and not being an Apple or Microsoft project, it should be widely accepted in spite of being a distant third in usability. Linux needs to step up its game or it will forever remain a distant third. The general public does not care about "free and open source" -- heck they barely care about privacy at all. That's just us, the HN crowd. I love Linux in theory, I use it a lot, but my daily driver is macOS. Frankly it likely will remain so even as I transition to being an Android engineer in the coming months.
- Un1corn 6y ago
  Have you really used a desktop Linux desktop recently? Sure it might have some problems but Fedora for example is in no way "a distant third in usability". I haven't used MacOS for a couple of years but I can say for certain that Linux is not that far behind Windows and sometimes even ahead. I think the main problem is lack of application support but specifically for developers most applications are already there.
  - mcny 6y ago
    I use Fedora. I work on dotnet. I've not been able to run my azure functions on Linux at all. Even on windows, I have to start the azure storage emulator directly and then start func (using the full path). On Linux, azurite is not the same thing as azure storage emulator. So I must use windows for dotnet development. Even after four years of dot net core. That being said, Linux isn't the problem. Gnome 3 isn't the problem either. Flatpak works great. There are a few regressions once in a while though. For example, I'm unable to use my lenovo flex 14 (and ryzen 3500U) built in mic since I upgraded to Fedora 33. Looks the issue well be fixed in kernel 5.9 but for the moment I'm on 5.8. But it has been great mostly. If I could use it for work, that'd be great.

damnencryption 6y ago

> And before "have you tried this *nix distro??" comments appear, they are still too hard to setup and nowhere near as user-friendly for most people on an everyday basis. This isn't true. This perception continues to hurt the Linux community along with others. Use a properly supported -buntu distro and you are good.

rsanheim 6y ago
I have. Many times. Every time I end up debugging suspend/resume, graphic drivers, multiple monitor, etc. I spend enough time changing config files for my job, I’m not spending my own time doing it just to get basic functionality working for workstations.
- Aeolun 6y ago
  I think it’s fairly simple to avoid this by buying hardware that is proven to be effective with the OS. E.g. buy a machine with *buntu preinstalled. Same as with mac really.
  - brnt 6y ago
    Even so, I install Ubuntu on a wide range of machines, laptops included, and I can't recall having any hardware related issues since, oh, 2005 or so? Parent must be very unlucky, or in fact not realise it is their tweaking and tuning that causes issues.
    - barrenko 6y ago
      True, installing Ubuntu is probably simpler than installing Windows, it doesn't ask you a million privacy shirking questions.
      - 6510 6y ago
        Lets call this user-friendly.
    - 6y ago

zakki 6y ago

>>> And before "have you tried this *nix distro??" comments appear, they are still too hard to setup I think why Apple, Android, Windows has the advantage is none of those 3 OSes require installation by most people. Why treat Linux differently? >>> and nowhere near as user-friendly for most people on an everyday basis User-Friendliness, I think, is more on day to day interaction. It will be interesting if there is a study in an area with low computer/smartphone interaction. Split them into 4 groups. Each group has their own OS. Later on they will be tested with some tasks.

marcus_holmes 6y ago
I bought a Purism laptop with Linux installed, and it was definitely as simple to get going on that as it was a Macbook. Actually even easier because there's no "You must have an AppleID to use this machine - if you don't have one go and register now" step, and no associated problems with that.

dasKrokodil 6y ago

> I would argue that Apple cares a bit more Have you read the article? Spoiler: They don't.

randlet 6y ago
Exactly. Apple has done a good job of selling the "we care about your privacy" line, but it's still just a line they're feeding you.
- rsanheim 6y ago
  If you compare how Siri works compared to comparable services, or Apple Maps, this just isn’t true.
zepto 6y ago
The active word is more. The article doesn’t examine other platforms at all, so doesn’t address this.

fxtentacle 6y ago

Setting up Ubuntu was easy enough. But the file manager locks up regularly, switching between multiple windows of the same app with alt+tab doesn't work reliably, and I actually had to Google how to create a new folder. The stock picture viewer is lacking information such as ICC profile and when I installed the recommended Gimp, it was a mess of windows and the save dialog was horrible. I suffer through all of it because I need docker with gpu support, but it's honestly a lot worse than what I expected.

jackcviers3 6y ago
I have not had any of these experiences with Ubuntu. Installing an OS on any new personal computer is much more difficult than when they had dvd drives. But once installed on compatible hardware, the Gnome 3 desktop use is nearly the same experience as Mac OS. Installing software is usually a matter of searching the software menu or downloading a .deb and double-clicking to run, and the New Folder button is prominent in the file window. The office suite is easy to use. Thunderbird is as easy to setup as Mail. Networking and devices are easy to configure from the gui, and Firefox and VSCode run without crashes. Proprietary video drivers for common hardware can be downloaded and installed via the gui. It's at least as usable from an admin standpoint as Windows 10, and from a user standpoint as Mac OS, albeit with a much smaller "app store" experience.
6510 6y ago
I like Thunar for file browsing. I would give it 6 stars out of 5.
turbinerneiter 6y ago
So you weren't able to come up with the idea of right-clicking without Google?
- fxtentacle 6y ago
  Right clicking didn't work. The main menu also didn't offer the option. You need to open a burger menu in the top right corner. And then the new folder button is purely an icon and it doesn't show a folder.

dingaling 6y ago

> Whether it is an android device, an iPhone, a Dell laptop or a new M1 macbook you are beholden to a corporation that doesn't care about privacy. Yet Dell and Lenovo offer computers with Linux pre-installed, but so many technical people ignore them because Apple is shiny and fast. If this trend continues then Linux and other open source OS will eventually exist only as a virtualized guest inside a locked-down proprietary system. There is genuine choice in the market now, but in ten years there won't be if people keep chasing baubles.

diab0lic 6y ago
> Yet Dell and Lenovo offer computers with Linux pre-installed, but so many technical people ignore them because Apple is shiny and fast. I got a Lenovo last year with Ubuntu preinstalled. It was he "blessed hardware". Wifi didn't work after wake / sleep and my connection via usb-c to my monitor was unusable. I switched back to a mac because I wanted to work, not fix my tools. These aren't one off anecdotes, there are dozens of people in this thread with the same story slightly different. This isn't people going to Apple because it is shiny, it's going to Apple because managing hardware isn't their job. Either verbally address that meaningfully or drop the condescending attitude.

II2II 6y ago

> And before "have you tried this *nix distro??" comments appear, they are still too hard to setup and nowhere near as user-friendly for most people on an everyday basis. Uh, no. There are many reasons why people don't use Linux. The easy of setup and use lines are pure nonsense. Many Linux distributions have been easier to setup and use since at least the introduction of Ubuntu, and perhaps earlier. Just pop in the live installation media, try it out for a bit to ensure your hardware is compatible, then run an installation program that asks questions that make sense to people rather than marketers. Getting the applications you need installed has involved using a store-like interface for longer than software stores have existed on commercial desktop operating systems. So why is it perceived as harder? One reason: users typically have to install their operating system, while end users rarely see the process on commercial operating systems. Second reason: those who do install their own OS typically dedicate their system to commercial operating systems, yet use dual-boot for Linux (which will add technical steps). Third reason: those making the transition may try to install commercial applications via a VM or WINE due to compatibility, familiarity, or (periodically) the lack of an open source alternative. In other words, it is perceived as harder because people make it harder. As someone who has been using Linux for decades, I find the setup and user friendliness of something like Windows far inferior to to Linux. Yes, part of that is due to familiarity. On the other hand, some of it is inherent due to there being fewer restrictions with open source software.

kybernetikos 6y ago
Fifth reason - many many laptops have at least some piece of hardware or behaviour that requires fiddling to get to work on major linux systems. Sometimes it's power management, sometimes it's running with multiple monitors or 3d acceleration or the touchscreen, sometimes it's getting the touchpad to work properly or the fingerprint reader.... In my experience, there's usually something.
- II2II 6y ago
  While this may be true, we should still be impressed by the number of laptops Linux operates flawlessly on. Very few people would expect Windows to run properly on a MacBook and far fewer would expect macOS to run on a generic PC. Yet people expect Linux to work flawlessly on almost anything thrown at it. From my experience, it does a very good job of this (at least in recent years).

feanaro 6y ago

> And before "have you tried this *nix distro??" comments appear Your style of comment is also quite the meme at this point, though. I always reply with: if my dad, mom, grandfather and other 10+ members of my family can use Mint and I have to do minimal maintenance for them, much less frequently than with Windows, then so can you.

AnIdiotOnTheNet 6y ago
Yeah, because your family members definitely represent literally every possible use case in the the world anyone could possibly have for a computer. Ugh.
- feanaro 6y ago
  Did I say definitely, literally every and could possibly? Notice to what I am replying: > [..] they are still too hard to setup and nowhere near as user-friendly for most people on an everyday basis. I think my comment is a fair rebuttal of nowhere near and most. If it was true, all of my family members would have to be outliers, which is statistically improbable. The more credible explanation is that it is not really true (and in my opinion, it clearly isn't).
  - AnIdiotOnTheNet 6y ago
    I think you're being disingenuous about what constitutes "most people" in the context of desktop computing, but alright fair enough, I I seem to have read more into your comment than was intended.