4 ms·

I come to the same conclusions you do about this, but I always find it hard to discuss these sort of details without getting my observations written off as toxi

by xwdv 6y ago

I come to the same conclusions you do about this, but I always find it hard to discuss these sort of details without getting my observations written off as toxic what-aboutism. In fact I wouldn’t be surprised if your comment began to accumulate downvotes very quickly, so here’s my upvote if it means anything. I have a female friend who would back me into a corner and force me to answer for all the wrongs men have done against women throughout history if I tried to raise the points you made with her. Not sure what to do.

s5300 6y ago
I would start by no longer being their friend. Who needs such toxicity in their life?
- xwdv 6y ago
  First I must win the argument, and then I can have the satisfaction of leaving on a high note.
refulgentis 6y ago
There's a way to talk about this stuff that isn't a series of assertions - I'm sure OP is hurt, and I'm sure you were too. I have been as well. It's odd to see that twisted into justification for claiming men are the one injured by sexism, especially when it's a series of things that are, at their face, false.
- musingsole 6y ago
  > claiming men are the one injured by sexism Weird that it can be only one or other that's injured and not both. Which is what both parents are referring to. GP even points to the asymmetry of the injuries done to various groups, but the point remains that every conceivable group is harmed by sexism in a variety of ways.
  - refulgentis 6y ago
    "asymmetry of injuries" is just anodyne enough of a phrase to seem obvious and fine, but it doesn't follow at all from GPs post. GPs post is about how men face _symmetrical_ injury, thus it is unfair to say it's an _asymmetric_ issue and only females are affected (if you need convincing on this, note their invocation of how unfair it is to LGBTQ people that the debate is reduced to gender...the opposite of your claim...)
    - musingsole 6y ago
      >> It's perfectly possible to write an article like this in neutral terms "primary caretaker," and point out the majority are women, and there's a disparate gender impact. > GPs post is about how men face _symmetrical_ injury, thus it is unfair to say it's an _asymmetric_ issue and only females are affected Point out to me what part of GP is claiming that the harms of a sexist society are felt symmetrically by the groups involved? There is a claim in GPs post that the men who have stepped out of the stereotypical role and into that primary care giver role are punched twice 1) by the traditional culture this article is railing against and 2) by the culture produced by articles like this that will ignore the men who do not fit into their power narrative.
      - refulgentis3 6y ago
        > Point out to me what part of GP is claiming that the harms of a sexist society are felt symmetrically by the groups involved? Sir, you clearly misread the post. "Dads are disadvantaged in the same way Moms are". Direct quote. The only qualitative judgement involving more impact on men, heck, the only mention of asymmetry, is "they're screwed over at work more", and you and I both know even that one isn't evidence of _men having more consequences due to sexism_: gobs, and gobs, and gobs, of evidence on what having children in your family _as a female_ impacts your pay over your career. male pay goes up! - https://www.cnbc.com/2019/10/16/womens-earnings-drop-after-having-a-childbut-mens-do-not.html https://www.cnbc.com/2019/10/16/womens-earnings-drop-after-h...
        6y ago

by xwdv 6y ago

s5300 6y ago

I would start by no longer being their friend. Who needs such toxicity in their life?

xwdv 6y ago
First I must win the argument, and then I can have the satisfaction of leaving on a high note.

refulgentis 6y ago

There's a way to talk about this stuff that isn't a series of assertions - I'm sure OP is hurt, and I'm sure you were too. I have been as well. It's odd to see that twisted into justification for claiming men are the one injured by sexism, especially when it's a series of things that are, at their face, false.

musingsole 6y ago
> claiming men are the one injured by sexism Weird that it can be only one or other that's injured and not both. Which is what both parents are referring to. GP even points to the asymmetry of the injuries done to various groups, but the point remains that every conceivable group is harmed by sexism in a variety of ways.
- refulgentis 6y ago
  "asymmetry of injuries" is just anodyne enough of a phrase to seem obvious and fine, but it doesn't follow at all from GPs post. GPs post is about how men face _symmetrical_ injury, thus it is unfair to say it's an _asymmetric_ issue and only females are affected (if you need convincing on this, note their invocation of how unfair it is to LGBTQ people that the debate is reduced to gender...the opposite of your claim...)
  - musingsole 6y ago
    >> It's perfectly possible to write an article like this in neutral terms "primary caretaker," and point out the majority are women, and there's a disparate gender impact. > GPs post is about how men face _symmetrical_ injury, thus it is unfair to say it's an _asymmetric_ issue and only females are affected Point out to me what part of GP is claiming that the harms of a sexist society are felt symmetrically by the groups involved? There is a claim in GPs post that the men who have stepped out of the stereotypical role and into that primary care giver role are punched twice 1) by the traditional culture this article is railing against and 2) by the culture produced by articles like this that will ignore the men who do not fit into their power narrative.
    - refulgentis3 6y ago
      > Point out to me what part of GP is claiming that the harms of a sexist society are felt symmetrically by the groups involved? Sir, you clearly misread the post. "Dads are disadvantaged in the same way Moms are". Direct quote. The only qualitative judgement involving more impact on men, heck, the only mention of asymmetry, is "they're screwed over at work more", and you and I both know even that one isn't evidence of _men having more consequences due to sexism_: gobs, and gobs, and gobs, of evidence on what having children in your family _as a female_ impacts your pay over your career. male pay goes up! - https://www.cnbc.com/2019/10/16/womens-earnings-drop-after-having-a-childbut-mens-do-not.html https://www.cnbc.com/2019/10/16/womens-earnings-drop-after-h...
      - 6y ago