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This was a huge reason why I decided to go with a 16" MBP with an i9 vs the M1 today. I assume this will get worked out eventually, but as massive as Apple's gr

This was a huge reason why I decided to go with a 16" MBP with an i9 vs the M1 today. I assume this will get worked out eventually, but as massive as Apple's gravity is in their ecosystem to pull apps along, they will have a much harder time against the massive library of x86 docker images.

zhengyi13 6y ago
Apropos of yesterday's thread(s?) around running a k3s cluster on Raspberry Pis - when I tried to do something similar, I very quickly ran out of steam trying to find manifests and charts that didn't have some random x86_64 image hardcoded somewhere inside them. I spent more time trying to figure out ways to get the right images than I did learning k8s, so I kinda put the project down. I do think this is exactly the sort of thing though that will start to flush that out, long term.
floatingatoll 6y ago
You did the right thing. This is not the right time for software developers to experiment with Apple Silicon, unless they’re willing to help develop software to work with Apple Silicon.
- ogre_codes 6y ago
  Largely depends on what kind of software developer you are. Not all developers rely on x86. Our app is React/ Typescript and we don't use Docker/ x86 virtualization at all. I do need MySQL and a few other tools, but I don't expect they will be long coming (or maybe already running in Homebrew is there Homebrew ARM?) If you make your living writing Mac or iOS software, this is a gift. Might be worth waiting for the next generation with more RAM and even beefier CPUs, but otherwise this is ideal.
  - Hackbraten 6y ago
    > is there Homebrew ARM? There is but it’s highly experimental still, with 50 % of formulae not working yet. Better to run Homebrew with Rosetta for now.
    - planb 6y ago
      In my experience it's always python and/or ruby that's causing the failues. As soon as they are fixed, most formulae will compile just fine.
      - floatingatoll 6y ago
        One of the formula not working in Homebrew’s core functionality is the gcc compiler, which they expect might be ready by mid-2021. Another is Go, which iirc they’re expecting will begin working around January. Rust and Erlang aren’t ready, MySQL doesn’t even get past the build phase, and Python is only partially working. You can track progress here. Be advised that packages listed as ‘check again when XYZ is fixed’ may themselves have issues that can’t yet be discovered. https://github.com/Homebrew/brew/issues/7857 https://github.com/Homebrew/brew/issues/7857
    - ogre_codes 6y ago
      > Better to run Homebrew with Rosetta for now. For some reason I'd completely forgotten this was an option. Looking at the discussions on the home-brew boards, it looks like this will be the way to run home-brew for some time.
  - floatingatoll 6y ago
    I would definitely not take for granted that you’ll be able to develop such things on the M1 platform without encountering M1 platform obstacles in unexpected corners of the tool chains for the next thirty days. It might be fine, but if it’s not, you’re out of luck until it is.
    - ogre_codes 6y ago
      Sure, M1 Apples are bleeding edge for at least six months, maybe a year or more.
waheoo 6y ago
I switched off Mac years ago. My servers run Linux. Not bsd. Having to deal with this sort of stuff is just a waste of time. Mac's don't have a monopoly on quality, haven't for a long time. And since it's a usual response, anyone claiming Linux is too fiddly haven't used it in a long time. And while it can be if you want to roll your own DE its completely optional. Using something like fedora you can literally do almost everything non developer based with point and click.
- fakedang 6y ago
  I moved to Linux last month. I currently run Windows, Linux and MacOS VM on my machine. From being a Windows guy through all the years, I've found myself increasingly using Linux in this span of time. The only thing preventing me from a complete switch is MS Office. I barely used MacOS, except to diagnose issues on MacOS and run XCode.
  - edelacruz 6y ago
    May I ask what linux you are using and how you got a Mac VM running? I tried myself and was able to get Catalina running on Ubuntu 20.04 using Openboot. But then Catalina updated itself and crashed after that. I wasn't able to reinstall MacOS successfully anymore, even starting from scratch. If you could help me out by pointing out which products/technologies you used and maybe a website describing step by step, that would be great.
    - fakedang 6y ago
      Ubuntu system. Firstly, I disabled updates, not because of Mac in particular, but I've had issues with Windows updates crashing before, so I don't eagerly update. Apart from that, standard QEMU process. This was the guide I used: https://www.funkyspacemonkey.com/how-to-install-macos-catalina-on-linux https://www.funkyspacemonkey.com/how-to-install-macos-catali...
      - edelacruz 6y ago
        Thanks. I'll give it another try.
angrygoat 6y ago
I guess the flip side is that, hopefully, the Docker ecosystem will start getting a lot better at multi-arch, at least for x86-64 and ARM. I just ordered an M1 MBP and I'll be quite happy to start thwacking bugs in images and upstreaming the fixes.
- nomel 6y ago
  I naively assumed, until today, that the whole point of using linux in docker was that you get the multi-arch goodness of linux for free!
  - Polylactic_acid 6y ago
    Not at all. Docker on a raspberry pi is a massive pain in the ass. Half the images are not compiled for ARM.
    - vocram 6y ago
      Not a bit deal. Building ARM images from Dockerfiles is trivial. And it has the benefit of not having to trust an upstream image content. If you want to go the extra mile, contribute to the project to provide multi arch images support.
  - caymanjim 6y ago
    What multi-arch goodness of Linux? Linux can't magically run code from any architecture even without Docker in the mix, and unless someone is maintaining packages for your specific architecture, you're building them yourself.
    - unethical_ban 6y ago
      As a non-processor geek, isn't M1 an arm chip? How long will it take arbitrary software to target it?
      - neurostimulant 6y ago
takeda 6y ago
I find it quite ironic that solution that supposed to make things portable it is now standing in a way of portability. Yes, I understand why, but still...
- FPGAhacker 6y ago
  Apple has only ever used portable to refer to their own platforms. Which is a bit of a stretch of the term considering what it means to the rest of the technical world, but there you have it. Per their own definition they have improved portability among their own platforms.
girvo 6y ago
Same reason why I chose the 2020 13” with the highest end Intel I could put in it. In another 3-4 years all this will be worked out and I’ll be happy to move to Apple Silicon

zhengyi13 6y ago

Apropos of yesterday's thread(s?) around running a k3s cluster on Raspberry Pis - when I tried to do something similar, I very quickly ran out of steam trying to find manifests and charts that didn't have some random x86_64 image hardcoded somewhere inside them. I spent more time trying to figure out ways to get the right images than I did learning k8s, so I kinda put the project down. I do think this is exactly the sort of thing though that will start to flush that out, long term.

floatingatoll 6y ago

You did the right thing. This is not the right time for software developers to experiment with Apple Silicon, unless they’re willing to help develop software to work with Apple Silicon.

ogre_codes 6y ago
Largely depends on what kind of software developer you are. Not all developers rely on x86. Our app is React/ Typescript and we don't use Docker/ x86 virtualization at all. I do need MySQL and a few other tools, but I don't expect they will be long coming (or maybe already running in Homebrew is there Homebrew ARM?) If you make your living writing Mac or iOS software, this is a gift. Might be worth waiting for the next generation with more RAM and even beefier CPUs, but otherwise this is ideal.
- Hackbraten 6y ago
  > is there Homebrew ARM? There is but it’s highly experimental still, with 50 % of formulae not working yet. Better to run Homebrew with Rosetta for now.
  - planb 6y ago
    In my experience it's always python and/or ruby that's causing the failues. As soon as they are fixed, most formulae will compile just fine.
    - floatingatoll 6y ago
      One of the formula not working in Homebrew’s core functionality is the gcc compiler, which they expect might be ready by mid-2021. Another is Go, which iirc they’re expecting will begin working around January. Rust and Erlang aren’t ready, MySQL doesn’t even get past the build phase, and Python is only partially working. You can track progress here. Be advised that packages listed as ‘check again when XYZ is fixed’ may themselves have issues that can’t yet be discovered. https://github.com/Homebrew/brew/issues/7857 https://github.com/Homebrew/brew/issues/7857
  - ogre_codes 6y ago
    > Better to run Homebrew with Rosetta for now. For some reason I'd completely forgotten this was an option. Looking at the discussions on the home-brew boards, it looks like this will be the way to run home-brew for some time.
- floatingatoll 6y ago
  I would definitely not take for granted that you’ll be able to develop such things on the M1 platform without encountering M1 platform obstacles in unexpected corners of the tool chains for the next thirty days. It might be fine, but if it’s not, you’re out of luck until it is.
  - ogre_codes 6y ago
    Sure, M1 Apples are bleeding edge for at least six months, maybe a year or more.

waheoo 6y ago

I switched off Mac years ago. My servers run Linux. Not bsd. Having to deal with this sort of stuff is just a waste of time. Mac's don't have a monopoly on quality, haven't for a long time. And since it's a usual response, anyone claiming Linux is too fiddly haven't used it in a long time. And while it can be if you want to roll your own DE its completely optional. Using something like fedora you can literally do almost everything non developer based with point and click.

fakedang 6y ago
I moved to Linux last month. I currently run Windows, Linux and MacOS VM on my machine. From being a Windows guy through all the years, I've found myself increasingly using Linux in this span of time. The only thing preventing me from a complete switch is MS Office. I barely used MacOS, except to diagnose issues on MacOS and run XCode.
- edelacruz 6y ago
  May I ask what linux you are using and how you got a Mac VM running? I tried myself and was able to get Catalina running on Ubuntu 20.04 using Openboot. But then Catalina updated itself and crashed after that. I wasn't able to reinstall MacOS successfully anymore, even starting from scratch. If you could help me out by pointing out which products/technologies you used and maybe a website describing step by step, that would be great.
  - fakedang 6y ago
    Ubuntu system. Firstly, I disabled updates, not because of Mac in particular, but I've had issues with Windows updates crashing before, so I don't eagerly update. Apart from that, standard QEMU process. This was the guide I used: https://www.funkyspacemonkey.com/how-to-install-macos-catalina-on-linux https://www.funkyspacemonkey.com/how-to-install-macos-catali...
    - edelacruz 6y ago
      Thanks. I'll give it another try.

angrygoat 6y ago

I guess the flip side is that, hopefully, the Docker ecosystem will start getting a lot better at multi-arch, at least for x86-64 and ARM. I just ordered an M1 MBP and I'll be quite happy to start thwacking bugs in images and upstreaming the fixes.

nomel 6y ago
I naively assumed, until today, that the whole point of using linux in docker was that you get the multi-arch goodness of linux for free!
- Polylactic_acid 6y ago
  Not at all. Docker on a raspberry pi is a massive pain in the ass. Half the images are not compiled for ARM.
  - vocram 6y ago
    Not a bit deal. Building ARM images from Dockerfiles is trivial. And it has the benefit of not having to trust an upstream image content. If you want to go the extra mile, contribute to the project to provide multi arch images support.
- caymanjim 6y ago
  What multi-arch goodness of Linux? Linux can't magically run code from any architecture even without Docker in the mix, and unless someone is maintaining packages for your specific architecture, you're building them yourself.
  - unethical_ban 6y ago
    As a non-processor geek, isn't M1 an arm chip? How long will it take arbitrary software to target it?
    - neurostimulant 6y ago

takeda 6y ago

I find it quite ironic that solution that supposed to make things portable it is now standing in a way of portability. Yes, I understand why, but still...

FPGAhacker 6y ago
Apple has only ever used portable to refer to their own platforms. Which is a bit of a stretch of the term considering what it means to the rest of the technical world, but there you have it. Per their own definition they have improved portability among their own platforms.

girvo 6y ago

Same reason why I chose the 2020 13” with the highest end Intel I could put in it. In another 3-4 years all this will be worked out and I’ll be happy to move to Apple Silicon