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Previously: Google bureaucracy expected from Ken Thompson (!) to pass a C language exam (!!). https://www.theregister.co.uk/2010/04/21/ken_thompson_take_our_t

by acqq 6y ago

Previously: Google bureaucracy expected from Ken Thompson (!) to pass a C language exam (!!). https://www.theregister.co.uk/2010/04/21/ken_thompson_take_our_test/ https://www.theregister.co.uk/2010/04/21/ken_thompson_take_o... "So Mr Thompson, you say you have some programming skills"

mattlondon 6y ago
I believe this is actually about checking in code, not about getting a job. From what I understand it is like a "driving license" for each language - if you haven't passed the driving test you can still drive but you need to have an instructor keep an eye on you. If you haven't passed the coding test you need someone to review your code before submitting.
- acqq 6y ago
  > I believe this is actually about checking in code, not about getting a job. I'd say it's about doing the work for which he came there, from TFA: "Google hired Thompson to create a new language, Go. But Google also requires all of its recruits to pass a language test. According to Thompson, he hasn't quite got round to it yet - and so can't submit code." And no, I have no understanding for that utter stupidity, or any attempt to accept it.
  - B-Con 6y ago
    As a Googler, that statement is just wrong. They were looking for a fun story and somehow got just the right quote to make one. Code committed to the internal repo requires a review from someone certified familiar with that language's internal style guide. He was hired to work on Go, not C, and just didn't get around to writing enough C to bother getting that certification. He can write C whenever he wants to, just like literally every other engineer, he would just get a style guide review at review time.
    - enneff 6y ago
      Indeed... I wonder why anyone would think ken would magically be familiar with Google’s internal C++ (not C!) style. I’m sure he would admit that he isn’t, and doesn’t deserve to be granted the C++ Readability certification just because he was involved in C’s development.
      - acqq 6y ago
        But it was not about some "certification." He states was not allowed to check in the C code he wrote, lacking a Google required exam. To quote that once again: "Google hired Thompson to create a new language, Go. But Google also requires all of its recruits to pass a language test. According to Thompson, he hasn't quite got round to it yet - and so can't submit code." It's not and it wasn't about any C++ "certifications." He was involved in the creation of a new language. For the new language there could have not been any existing certification. And as far as I know, the initial implementation language of Go was not C++ but C. In creation of which was Thompson also directly involved. And as far as I know the people worked on the parts of the code before Google and these parts of said C code already existed before Google (Go had some dependencies on code from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plan_9_from_Bell_Labs https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plan_9_from_Bell_Labs and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inferno_(operating_system) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inferno_(operating_system)). So it was indeed as absurd as it could have been. He was a part of the team that directly invented both the language and the style guide of the language, but some bureaucratic exam was expected from him to submit the code to the source control system.
        B-Con 6y ago
        As I said above, the literal interpretation flat out wrong. There is no mechanism that exists now nor in the past to make the statement literally true as written. I don't know how they managed to get that statement, but it's misleading. Many misconceptions begin with an element of truth. I'm guessing the element of truth here was the "certification" process. (Maybe it was something else, like a mixup having him as an advisor accidentally caused him to not be hired into the engineering group and thus there was a wait before he got engineering credentials to view/edit code. But that kind of thing is just silly paperwork and clearly fixed promptly.) I just checked. He had literally written some C++ code before that snippet was published. It was not the absurd statement it's been made out to be. It sounds unbelievable for a reason: It is unbelievable because it didn't happen.
- xiphias2 6y ago
  It's mostly about getting used to the language usage style used in Google (the style guides are open, so you can see it). The philosophy is that all Google code base should look like it was written by 1 person. It's great actually in practice: code in a big company should be hard to write and easy to read, as it's read by many people.
  - hulitu 6y ago
    > It's mostly about getting used to the language usage style used in Google (the style guides are open, so you can see it). > The philosophy is that all Google code base should look like it was written by 1 person. But all google products look like they are written by only one person so the aim is achieved. The worst thing however is that other person started doing the same.
- jimbokun 6y ago
  So Ken Thompson created go and gofmt so he wouldn't have to deal with that crap any more.
- mianos 6y ago
  It is certainly not a driver's license, this makes as much sense as asking Hamilton or Vittel to do a driving test before giving them a job as a driver. That said, I would not be surprised this would happen at Google as they truly believe their process is vastly superior, as they believe themselves. Pretty sure they would ask Linus to to a C programming test as well, and score him badly because he can't remember the exact details of some algorithm he has not used since he wrote the first lines of Linux.
  - aeyes 6y ago
    > this makes as much sense as asking Hamilton or Vittel to do a driving test before giving them a job as a driver https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FIA_Super_Licence https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FIA_Super_Licence
    - mianos 6y ago
      As it said, it makes no sense at all. F1 is not Google, "Provided a driver has previously held a super licence they do not have to meet these requirements, a driver who has held a valid super licence for any of the previous three seasons is eligible for a new licence, "
strombofulous 6y ago
>Thompson: I'm not allowed to check in code, no... I just haven't done it. I've so far found no need to. He could probably get around this easily if he tried Still a funny quip though
- google234123 6y ago
  This is not true though. All code at Google goes through review. If you aren't certified in a language, your reviewer must be (or you need to get another reviewer with it). Unless Thompson's code is being reviewed by someone that has been at Google for just a few months, this is a non-issue.
simonebrunozzi 6y ago
This is equally interesting (or equally bad): "Google: 90% of our engineers use the software you wrote (Homebrew), but you can’t invert a binary tree on a whiteboard so fuck off" [0] More details two years later here [1]. [0]: https://twitter.com/mxcl/status/608682016205344768 https://twitter.com/mxcl/status/608682016205344768 [1]: https://www.quora.com/Whats-the-logic-behind-Google-rejecting-Max-Howell-the-author-of-Homebrew-for-not-being-able-to-invert-a-binary-tree/answer/Max-Howell https://www.quora.com/Whats-the-logic-behind-Google-rejectin...
- arc0 6y ago
  No it's not, the creator of Homebrew has nowhere near the clout of Van Rossum or Thompson. I don't think it's a big enough or technically complex enough project that its author should expect to skip the standard interview procedure, whereas the creators of Python and C absolutely should.
- w0m 6y ago
  to be fair; it sounds like he didn't get the job due lack of interpersonal skills; not for lack of programming skills.

by acqq 6y ago

mattlondon 6y ago

I believe this is actually about checking in code, not about getting a job. From what I understand it is like a "driving license" for each language - if you haven't passed the driving test you can still drive but you need to have an instructor keep an eye on you. If you haven't passed the coding test you need someone to review your code before submitting.

acqq 6y ago
> I believe this is actually about checking in code, not about getting a job. I'd say it's about doing the work for which he came there, from TFA: "Google hired Thompson to create a new language, Go. But Google also requires all of its recruits to pass a language test. According to Thompson, he hasn't quite got round to it yet - and so can't submit code." And no, I have no understanding for that utter stupidity, or any attempt to accept it.
- B-Con 6y ago
  As a Googler, that statement is just wrong. They were looking for a fun story and somehow got just the right quote to make one. Code committed to the internal repo requires a review from someone certified familiar with that language's internal style guide. He was hired to work on Go, not C, and just didn't get around to writing enough C to bother getting that certification. He can write C whenever he wants to, just like literally every other engineer, he would just get a style guide review at review time.
  - enneff 6y ago
    Indeed... I wonder why anyone would think ken would magically be familiar with Google’s internal C++ (not C!) style. I’m sure he would admit that he isn’t, and doesn’t deserve to be granted the C++ Readability certification just because he was involved in C’s development.
    - acqq 6y ago
      But it was not about some "certification." He states was not allowed to check in the C code he wrote, lacking a Google required exam. To quote that once again: "Google hired Thompson to create a new language, Go. But Google also requires all of its recruits to pass a language test. According to Thompson, he hasn't quite got round to it yet - and so can't submit code." It's not and it wasn't about any C++ "certifications." He was involved in the creation of a new language. For the new language there could have not been any existing certification. And as far as I know, the initial implementation language of Go was not C++ but C. In creation of which was Thompson also directly involved. And as far as I know the people worked on the parts of the code before Google and these parts of said C code already existed before Google (Go had some dependencies on code from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plan_9_from_Bell_Labs https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plan_9_from_Bell_Labs and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inferno_(operating_system) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inferno_(operating_system)). So it was indeed as absurd as it could have been. He was a part of the team that directly invented both the language and the style guide of the language, but some bureaucratic exam was expected from him to submit the code to the source control system.
      - B-Con 6y ago
        As I said above, the literal interpretation flat out wrong. There is no mechanism that exists now nor in the past to make the statement literally true as written. I don't know how they managed to get that statement, but it's misleading. Many misconceptions begin with an element of truth. I'm guessing the element of truth here was the "certification" process. (Maybe it was something else, like a mixup having him as an advisor accidentally caused him to not be hired into the engineering group and thus there was a wait before he got engineering credentials to view/edit code. But that kind of thing is just silly paperwork and clearly fixed promptly.) I just checked. He had literally written some C++ code before that snippet was published. It was not the absurd statement it's been made out to be. It sounds unbelievable for a reason: It is unbelievable because it didn't happen.
xiphias2 6y ago
It's mostly about getting used to the language usage style used in Google (the style guides are open, so you can see it). The philosophy is that all Google code base should look like it was written by 1 person. It's great actually in practice: code in a big company should be hard to write and easy to read, as it's read by many people.
- hulitu 6y ago
  > It's mostly about getting used to the language usage style used in Google (the style guides are open, so you can see it). > The philosophy is that all Google code base should look like it was written by 1 person. But all google products look like they are written by only one person so the aim is achieved. The worst thing however is that other person started doing the same.
jimbokun 6y ago
So Ken Thompson created go and gofmt so he wouldn't have to deal with that crap any more.
mianos 6y ago
It is certainly not a driver's license, this makes as much sense as asking Hamilton or Vittel to do a driving test before giving them a job as a driver. That said, I would not be surprised this would happen at Google as they truly believe their process is vastly superior, as they believe themselves. Pretty sure they would ask Linus to to a C programming test as well, and score him badly because he can't remember the exact details of some algorithm he has not used since he wrote the first lines of Linux.
- aeyes 6y ago
  > this makes as much sense as asking Hamilton or Vittel to do a driving test before giving them a job as a driver https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FIA_Super_Licence https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FIA_Super_Licence
  - mianos 6y ago
    As it said, it makes no sense at all. F1 is not Google, "Provided a driver has previously held a super licence they do not have to meet these requirements, a driver who has held a valid super licence for any of the previous three seasons is eligible for a new licence, "

strombofulous 6y ago

>Thompson: I'm not allowed to check in code, no... I just haven't done it. I've so far found no need to. He could probably get around this easily if he tried Still a funny quip though

google234123 6y ago
This is not true though. All code at Google goes through review. If you aren't certified in a language, your reviewer must be (or you need to get another reviewer with it). Unless Thompson's code is being reviewed by someone that has been at Google for just a few months, this is a non-issue.

simonebrunozzi 6y ago

This is equally interesting (or equally bad): "Google: 90% of our engineers use the software you wrote (Homebrew), but you can’t invert a binary tree on a whiteboard so fuck off" [0] More details two years later here [1]. [0]: https://twitter.com/mxcl/status/608682016205344768 https://twitter.com/mxcl/status/608682016205344768 [1]: https://www.quora.com/Whats-the-logic-behind-Google-rejecting-Max-Howell-the-author-of-Homebrew-for-not-being-able-to-invert-a-binary-tree/answer/Max-Howell https://www.quora.com/Whats-the-logic-behind-Google-rejectin...

arc0 6y ago
No it's not, the creator of Homebrew has nowhere near the clout of Van Rossum or Thompson. I don't think it's a big enough or technically complex enough project that its author should expect to skip the standard interview procedure, whereas the creators of Python and C absolutely should.
w0m 6y ago
to be fair; it sounds like he didn't get the job due lack of interpersonal skills; not for lack of programming skills.