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Group of Google critics calls for EU antitrust action

92 points by samizdis 6y ago

vimy 6y ago
A decent Google alternative I found recently is https://www.qwant.com https://www.qwant.com . So far it seems comparable to Google results, no complaints yet. Much better than DuckDuckGo or Bing in my experience. They use their own crawler.
- Mizza 6y ago
  I'm glad to see more competition, but I'm disappointed to see that it's basically a clone. There is so much room for differentiation that nobody is exploring, I'm thinking about taking a shot at it.
  - atty 6y ago
    I’m curious, what would you want to differentiate in? As far as I’m concerned, Google achieved an almost perfect search engine maybe 5-10 years ago, before they started pushing their ads harder, hiding the page address, and all these other user-hostile behaviors they’ve been taking in the near past. I just want a service that gives me the most relevant result as the first option, with no distractions.
    - ratww 6y ago
      Not GP but: would be nice to have a search engine that penalises content marketing and ad-heavy websites. The web is flooded with bad content, and Google doesn't seem to care, since it brings money to them. There's also too much duplicate junk: it would be nice to search for a song title and not being given 20 pages of copycat lyrics websites. Or 20 pages of copycat guitar tab websites. Also: software aggregators, Wikipedia mirrors, Stack Overflow mirrors, Github mirrors. I mean they're all the same, maybe just aggregate them together? Would also be nice to be able to filter out, or at least de-emphasise things like: piracy download sites, fake download sites, fake ebook sites. Of course that would need some curation.
  - mprovost 6y ago
    I spent a few years working at a search startup. I would say Google is ready to squash competition like a bug but really you're more like a bug getting splatted on their windscreen. Most of the time they don't even consider you to be competition. Maybe in some ways that's a good thing - if they don't consider you to be a threat then you've got some room to innovate. Until you get big enough that you show up on their radar... then they can just copy whatever you've been doing differently.
- 1996 6y ago
  Isn't that the clone that's using bing results and public subsidies to pretend it's a EU unicorn and gather support from nationalists? Sorry if it's rude, but that's my take on it - a public subsidies scam. The hatred for US companies in the EU can't justify everything.
- GirkovArpa 6y ago
  I didn't know about qwant's existence until your comment and I just made it my default engine. It seems like a Google clone, and better than duckduckgo.com which is perfect. No more drop downs getting in my way of clicking on results.
username90 6y ago
Googles main revenue lies in Search, they'd gladly sacrifice everything else to keep it. I don't think other parts of Google could convince Google Search to sacrifice itself for them. Disclaimer: I worked at Google Search but no longer work at Google or own any stocks.
- capableweb 6y ago
  I'm sorry if I misunderstand what you mean, but how does Google get any revenue at all from Google Search? I thought the Ads was the money maker for Google and Google Search is simply supporting Ads to make more money.
  - username90 6y ago
    Google search generates more ad revenue than the other parts of Google combined last time I checked.
    - capableweb 6y ago
      Right, but Google without the ad revenue would be zero. Google without the search revenue would be a shadow of it's former self, but ad revenue would surely not be zero as YouTube and myriad of other services still exist. Summary: Google without Ads but with Search = $0 Google without Search but with Ads = >$0
      - Drakim 6y ago
        I assume the idea is that Google Search could use ads from other sources than Google Ads and it would beat a theoretical Google Ad + everything else but without the Google Search.
        a1369209993 6y ago
        That's how I read it, but capableweb has a point in that that's not particularly clear from how username90 phrased it.
big_curses 6y ago
Hilarious that Yelp is criticizing Google in any way given their history of manipulating reviews and ratings, something that I find much more egregious than promoting internal products and services. Aside from that, can someone explain to me the reason this should require any sort of legal action taken against Google? I understand people not liking this behavior, but that's a reason to stop using Google, not to form this antitrust response. Additionally, it always seems to me that actions like Google's are fine until a company becomes to big, at which point it is suddenly decided that it is unfair. Why do we even care about fairness now? Nothing about the resources one has at one's disposal ever seems fair in business. It all seems very arbitrary.
- RobertoG 6y ago
  >>"Additionally, it always seems to me that actions like Google's are fine until a company becomes to big, at which point it is suddenly decided that it is unfair." It's the fact that it's big what makes it unfair and scary(1). It's literally called "antitrust" (2) (1) - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trust_(business)#/media/File:Standard_oil_octopus_loc_color.jpg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trust_(business)#/media/File:S... (2) - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trust_(business) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trust_(business)
  - big_curses 6y ago
    It does make it unfair, but I don't see that as an issue in itself. For the image in your first link, I don't see the issue as Standard Oil being powerful in itself, but rather the government having the power to create regulation and subsidies for businesses that would cause it to be a target of a trust in the first place. I believe the only way to get corporate money out of politics is to take the government out of economics completely. (of course they could still prosecute businesses for illegal action, but they could not solidify a business' power through subsidies or regulation)
    - BlueTemplar 6y ago
      You can't remove regulation, it's what keeps negative externalities in check.
cblconfederate 6y ago
Over the years it seems the EU is more interested in the fines rather than reducing google s footprint to allow domestic competitors, despite the evidence about how the internet works
- capableweb 6y ago
  Is it possible that the EU might be investing in three angles at the same time? Fine Google because they continue to not give a shit about privacy, reduce dependency on Google's services by using alternatives and give more grants to local startups working on technical problems.
  - RobertoG 6y ago
    Also it's possible that there is somebody pushing one way in Brussels, and some friends of Google and company, pushing the other and we get only a diluted and distorted version of what would work best.
- op03 6y ago
  They have no moves to make. No one really has too much faith in EU startups or their tech sector and that includes the largest EU non tech firms who have spent tons trying to jump start local tech.
  - capableweb 6y ago
    If you're stuck in the typical "Silicon Valley" information bubble, probably no one has much faith in EU companies. But for the rest of us who live either outside that bubble or outside of the US in general, lots of good has come out of EU, even startups, that we rely on daily.
    - lawrenceyan 6y ago
      Do you maybe have a quick list of companies you could highlight from the EU? Asking genuinely here.
ExcavateGrandMa 6y ago
Wake up meat & meat! The law is a tool for clowns... The law itself favor its own interests... I've been pleased to speak with you meat & meat... PS: A meat usually pointing out stuffs in favor of its own interests..
rebelde 6y ago
> The group said the Digital Markets Act - new EU tech rules in the pipeline that would prevent dominant online platforms from favouring their own services - would take too long to come into effect. > “Many of us may not have the strength and resources to wait until such regulation really takes effect,” they said. That act seems to do basically what they want and it seems that it would take effect in the next year or two. Does it take longer?
partingshots 6y ago
Does this pose any danger for Google’s Fitbit acquisition? It seems like the only major blockade for the merger completing is from the EU investigating. Can we assume that Search will be separated from any hardware/data related issues?
mttddd 6y ago
It is going to be interesting to see how these big tech companies deal with so much localized regulation and enforcement be it anti trust or privacy. Ironically a lot of that will also just further entrench their market position.

92 points by samizdis 6y ago

vimy 6y ago

A decent Google alternative I found recently is https://www.qwant.com https://www.qwant.com . So far it seems comparable to Google results, no complaints yet. Much better than DuckDuckGo or Bing in my experience. They use their own crawler.

Mizza 6y ago
I'm glad to see more competition, but I'm disappointed to see that it's basically a clone. There is so much room for differentiation that nobody is exploring, I'm thinking about taking a shot at it.
- atty 6y ago
  I’m curious, what would you want to differentiate in? As far as I’m concerned, Google achieved an almost perfect search engine maybe 5-10 years ago, before they started pushing their ads harder, hiding the page address, and all these other user-hostile behaviors they’ve been taking in the near past. I just want a service that gives me the most relevant result as the first option, with no distractions.
  - ratww 6y ago
    Not GP but: would be nice to have a search engine that penalises content marketing and ad-heavy websites. The web is flooded with bad content, and Google doesn't seem to care, since it brings money to them. There's also too much duplicate junk: it would be nice to search for a song title and not being given 20 pages of copycat lyrics websites. Or 20 pages of copycat guitar tab websites. Also: software aggregators, Wikipedia mirrors, Stack Overflow mirrors, Github mirrors. I mean they're all the same, maybe just aggregate them together? Would also be nice to be able to filter out, or at least de-emphasise things like: piracy download sites, fake download sites, fake ebook sites. Of course that would need some curation.
- mprovost 6y ago
  I spent a few years working at a search startup. I would say Google is ready to squash competition like a bug but really you're more like a bug getting splatted on their windscreen. Most of the time they don't even consider you to be competition. Maybe in some ways that's a good thing - if they don't consider you to be a threat then you've got some room to innovate. Until you get big enough that you show up on their radar... then they can just copy whatever you've been doing differently.
1996 6y ago
Isn't that the clone that's using bing results and public subsidies to pretend it's a EU unicorn and gather support from nationalists? Sorry if it's rude, but that's my take on it - a public subsidies scam. The hatred for US companies in the EU can't justify everything.
GirkovArpa 6y ago
I didn't know about qwant's existence until your comment and I just made it my default engine. It seems like a Google clone, and better than duckduckgo.com which is perfect. No more drop downs getting in my way of clicking on results.

username90 6y ago

Googles main revenue lies in Search, they'd gladly sacrifice everything else to keep it. I don't think other parts of Google could convince Google Search to sacrifice itself for them. Disclaimer: I worked at Google Search but no longer work at Google or own any stocks.

capableweb 6y ago
I'm sorry if I misunderstand what you mean, but how does Google get any revenue at all from Google Search? I thought the Ads was the money maker for Google and Google Search is simply supporting Ads to make more money.
- username90 6y ago
  Google search generates more ad revenue than the other parts of Google combined last time I checked.
  - capableweb 6y ago
    Right, but Google without the ad revenue would be zero. Google without the search revenue would be a shadow of it's former self, but ad revenue would surely not be zero as YouTube and myriad of other services still exist. Summary: Google without Ads but with Search = $0 Google without Search but with Ads = >$0
    - Drakim 6y ago
      I assume the idea is that Google Search could use ads from other sources than Google Ads and it would beat a theoretical Google Ad + everything else but without the Google Search.
      - a1369209993 6y ago
        That's how I read it, but capableweb has a point in that that's not particularly clear from how username90 phrased it.

big_curses 6y ago

Hilarious that Yelp is criticizing Google in any way given their history of manipulating reviews and ratings, something that I find much more egregious than promoting internal products and services. Aside from that, can someone explain to me the reason this should require any sort of legal action taken against Google? I understand people not liking this behavior, but that's a reason to stop using Google, not to form this antitrust response. Additionally, it always seems to me that actions like Google's are fine until a company becomes to big, at which point it is suddenly decided that it is unfair. Why do we even care about fairness now? Nothing about the resources one has at one's disposal ever seems fair in business. It all seems very arbitrary.

RobertoG 6y ago
>>"Additionally, it always seems to me that actions like Google's are fine until a company becomes to big, at which point it is suddenly decided that it is unfair." It's the fact that it's big what makes it unfair and scary(1). It's literally called "antitrust" (2) (1) - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trust_(business)#/media/File:Standard_oil_octopus_loc_color.jpg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trust_(business)#/media/File:S... (2) - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trust_(business) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trust_(business)
- big_curses 6y ago
  It does make it unfair, but I don't see that as an issue in itself. For the image in your first link, I don't see the issue as Standard Oil being powerful in itself, but rather the government having the power to create regulation and subsidies for businesses that would cause it to be a target of a trust in the first place. I believe the only way to get corporate money out of politics is to take the government out of economics completely. (of course they could still prosecute businesses for illegal action, but they could not solidify a business' power through subsidies or regulation)
  - BlueTemplar 6y ago
    You can't remove regulation, it's what keeps negative externalities in check.

cblconfederate 6y ago

Over the years it seems the EU is more interested in the fines rather than reducing google s footprint to allow domestic competitors, despite the evidence about how the internet works

capableweb 6y ago
Is it possible that the EU might be investing in three angles at the same time? Fine Google because they continue to not give a shit about privacy, reduce dependency on Google's services by using alternatives and give more grants to local startups working on technical problems.
- RobertoG 6y ago
  Also it's possible that there is somebody pushing one way in Brussels, and some friends of Google and company, pushing the other and we get only a diluted and distorted version of what would work best.
op03 6y ago
They have no moves to make. No one really has too much faith in EU startups or their tech sector and that includes the largest EU non tech firms who have spent tons trying to jump start local tech.
- capableweb 6y ago
  If you're stuck in the typical "Silicon Valley" information bubble, probably no one has much faith in EU companies. But for the rest of us who live either outside that bubble or outside of the US in general, lots of good has come out of EU, even startups, that we rely on daily.
  - lawrenceyan 6y ago
    Do you maybe have a quick list of companies you could highlight from the EU? Asking genuinely here.

ExcavateGrandMa 6y ago

Wake up meat & meat! The law is a tool for clowns... The law itself favor its own interests... I've been pleased to speak with you meat & meat... PS: A meat usually pointing out stuffs in favor of its own interests..

rebelde 6y ago

> The group said the Digital Markets Act - new EU tech rules in the pipeline that would prevent dominant online platforms from favouring their own services - would take too long to come into effect. > “Many of us may not have the strength and resources to wait until such regulation really takes effect,” they said. That act seems to do basically what they want and it seems that it would take effect in the next year or two. Does it take longer?

partingshots 6y ago

Does this pose any danger for Google’s Fitbit acquisition? It seems like the only major blockade for the merger completing is from the EU investigating. Can we assume that Search will be separated from any hardware/data related issues?

mttddd 6y ago

It is going to be interesting to see how these big tech companies deal with so much localized regulation and enforcement be it anti trust or privacy. Ironically a lot of that will also just further entrench their market position.